Party Poker 1/2 Hold'em (9 max, 9 handed) converter

Preflop: econ_tim is UTG+1 with Q:diamond:, 9:diamond:.
1 fold, CO calls, Button calls, SB calls, BB calls, econ_tim calls.

Flop: (12 SB) 8:diamond:, 5:spade:, J:diamond: (6 players)
SB checks, BB checks, econ_tim checks, MP3 bets, MP3 calls, CO folds, Button calls, BB calls.

Turn: (10.50 BB) 4:heart: (4 players)
BB checks, econ_tim checks, MP3 checks, Button checks.

River: (10.50 BB) 9:heart: (4 players)
BB checks, econ_tim bets, Button folds, BB folds, econ_tim folds.

Final Pot: 13.50 BB

What?!?

I'm a little concerned about the turn. And more concerned about the river.

as i said to tim over AIM, i think this is a very clear turn bet. regardless, i like the river play tremendously against a straightforward player.

aseem

I don't play limit often at all, so I'm wondering what the rationale for betting the turn is. Are we exploiting an equity edge or are we looking for a free showdown if we miss?

if we bet the turn and MP folds any pair below jacks, we are golden. not only have we folded a better hand, but now we win if a 9 falls, as it did in this case. if we bet the turn and another 9-x or Q-x folds, we can win when either of those cards fall (assuming we fold a better one). as an added bonus, we also improve our fold equity on a river bluff if we miss.

the point is that this pot is sufficiently large now that we want to maximize our winning chances. folding a better hand (middle pair, bottom pair, ace high, etc.) in a big pot is a monstrous thing.

aseem

Cool. That makes sense.

betting the turn isnt good. I like the river play, though.

Expand?

explain?

aseem

cause there is zero fold equity in it, and its not really for value either



am I the only one who wonders what's up with the PF open limp

I'm limping with marginal hands just so I'll have something interesting to post here.

I'm checking this river out of position to hopefully see if I'm looking at 900 overcalls before it's my action.

Odds of having the best hand or folding a better one here aren't tremendous betting out 4handed.

I don't really like the river.

I think MP3 has T9 enough times to make calling profitable getting 13.5:1.

He'd have to be pretty LAG to raise T9 preflop. I think at worst he has A9.

Right, I missed that he was the PF raiser.

Fold PF. Limping with junk OOP is what we like to call creating unnecessary problems where I'm from.

But, I like the rest of it just fine.

why is there zero fold equity in the turn bet??

would MP3 not fold A-K here? would he not fold 10-10?

isn't this pot big enough that we should maximize our winning chances?

folding ace-high here is golden, as is folding ANY PAIR. even if MP doesn't fold ace-high, if someone else in the field folds middle pair or bottom pair, isn't that a freaking coup in a big pot?

i'm really at a loss for words. when you guys advocate getting aggressive, i say "no, that's chip spewing. just call." when i advocate getting aggressive, you guys say "no, there's no fold equity. just check."

honestly, it seems that we disagree on a huge percentage of hands, and i really wonder why that is. it's not like either of us are losing players, and it might just be that all these decisions are so close that it doesn't make much of a difference in the long run, but that really just amazes me.

aseem

p.s. from what i understood, the river bet was intended for value, not to make a better hand fold (which almost never happens). he bet for value and safely folded to the raise. no straightforward player (as tim described him) raises this river with much that tim beats, right? if you think this player isn't straightforward, check/calling is better i think.

i don't mind the preflop limp in a game that regularly features six-way raised pots.

aseem

To play this junk from UTG +1 six-way raised pots had better be happenin like clockwork... not just in the hand he decided to post. :wink:

i agree.

aseem

its simple, Any Ace HIgh hand pretty much would have odds to peel for the river, and I don't like bluffing into a field of players who didn't fold in the first place. as far as the river bet, I fully agree with smash, I check and plan to not overcall. oh yeah, 1010 or 99 aren't folding to a turn bet either, there is only one overcard and it is reasonable that they have the best hand, I hope that you aren't folding there if you have those hands and that board