Hero has JJ in the BB... 4 limpers and SB comes along for the ride.

Flop comes QQT

3rd limper bets, call, I call, fold, fold...

turn blank... check, check, button bets this time... I ???


I should have most definitely raised the flop to see where I was, but I thought a call down would work too... very passive for me as I'm normally aggressive... maybe the new jump up to these stakes, I dunno... but whats everyone's line here...

I'm thinking PF raise here is in line.

JJ isn't a great hand with 5 others in the pot.

You know there will be overcards out there.

Raising outta the BB isnt gonna make anyone fold, itll only give overcards better odds to draw if they miss the flop.

Maybe it won't fold anyone, but at least when you
raise after the flop, they'll at least maybe give you
some credit for a hand.

I would think that it's more of a raise for value than it is to thin the field, but it's probably a borderline situation.

Tens, and especially nines are definitely not raises from the BB. Queens and definitely kings or aces are.



If they have less than a pair of jacks, why would you want them to give you credit for a hand?

Because I'm thinking we may have let something
like AQ or KQ limp in.

I don't think it is borderline. JJ should win more than it's share, even against 5 opponents (17%, almost covered by the set possibility)



To get them to fold their overcards with gutshot straight possibility (but waiting for the turn might be better for that), their JT, or other crap.

So I would raise the turn.

Why didn't you bet out on that flop, wannabe? That's a pretty standard bet/call (fold to a three-bet) on the flop, check/fold UI on the turn (and yes, picking up an OESD is enough of an improvement to call a turn bet).

Button is so obviously slow-playing his Q-junk hand that it actually physically hurts me to look at the HH.

Raise PF. Your equity edge is too good with J-J to pass up, and offsets your poor position.

I'd also lead the flop, call one, fold to a three-bet.

Future street action would depend on the response to the PF raise + flop play.

raising PF here is bad. THIs isn't a .5/1 or 2/4 where limpers are gonna be limping in with complete crap, granted there are a lot of tards at 15/30, but they are better then most of the players at 2/4. I'm thinking that a flop CR would be most in line, but considering how the hand has played out so far, I'd CR the turn and fold to a three bet

ok, people advocating a preflop raise... what good does this really do? It mainly just gives odds for people to call and chase their draws. We want to keep our hand sneaky for a possible checkraise to eliminate the field on a flop of undercards. This was a very tough hand for me, and I should have folded, but went w/ it, b/c I put the button on AT when he just called the flop rather than raising (very poor move on his part) . There were too many people in this pot, and too many straight draws for him to not raise his Q here.

Unfortunately, he didn't just have a Q, but QT, and was hoping someone caught their straight. This is why I misplayed this hand.. he just woke up w/ an absolute monster.

So does raising here with AA. You gonna check that too?

Ok, look, I know there's a difference. But the point is you're raising for value with an equity edge against more or less random hands. You're going to win more than your fair share raising this hand here, so you should.

Yes raising increases the pot size and makes some draws correct to draw to, but even with that you get a greater return on your money raising pre-flop than most of your opponents. That's why you do it.

Jeff

Raising for value is much different on a higher stakes table... there just aren't a whole lot of great flops for JJ, which is why we check in the BB.

If you don't agree, here is what Daniel Negreanu wrote:

Man, I might be a little out of touch with these micro limit games so correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't like the idea of raising with JJ from the SB in a multi-way pot.

Too often you are going to find yourself with a difficult decision as there aren't a lot of "great" flops out there for JJ. Pre-flop in this situation I'd generally look to slowplay and add some deception to my game, running the risk of allowing the BB to see the flop for free.

The other problem with raising is that you make the pot so big that it's now correct for people to chase long draws after the flop. I say keep the pot small, lose the minimum on bad flops, and surprise them once and a while when you hit a good flop.

Having said that, poker is poker, and developing too many "bad" habits when playing small games online could hurt your overall development. Similar to a golf swing. If you practice improperly for too long it could curb your development.

After reading through some of the threads that's the theme I'm finding. Many of you are playing a style that might work in the games you are playing, but are also developing bad habits that you'll have to learn to grow out of eventually if you want to be successful at the higher limits.

Just some food for thought guys, don't take it the wrong way...

This bb check is standard. I'd rather raise a hand like ATs or QJs out of the bb than jacks. You're going to get a lot of bad flops where you can simply check and fold. Raising jacks out of the bb with 4 limpers at 15/30 is bad. Really bad.

I remember that DN post, actually, but it is interesting in this light.

I object to the statement, however, that raising here is "really bad". It's not. It almost never is. In fact, the worst scenario I can come up with in pokenum (without overpairs) puts you at about 15% equity, which makes the raise -EV. Every other combination of cards I've put in shows an equity edge here that makes the raise +EV, if only by a small amount. I'll concede that raising is borderline, but it's certainly not "really bad".

If you don't like raising with JJ, how about QQ? KK? AA?

Jeff

KK and AA definitely, QQ maybe... depends on how many limpers and the style of the table... loose or what not... If few limpers, I raise QQ, if lots of limpers, I see a flop then try to eliminate some of the field on a good flop.

raising works in lower limit games, but here, its dumb. Again, you don't get too many good flops for JJ, you are gonna have an overcard a very good percentage of the time, and by bloating the pot PF you will be pricing in any overcards that might not hit to peel, which sucks for us. Look, its about seeing a flop where our EV will be higher if we get a solid flop, that is much better then raising PF, don't get stuck into bad habits

If not with jacks, would you advise doing it with queens?

yes, and overcard will only hit 37% of the time there, much different

I like this. While you may get overcards to fold incorrectly at the lower limits, this doesn't happen nearly as much at 15/30.

Also, with 5 limpers at 2/4, a safe overcard may hit the flop because people are playing so much garbage. At 15/30, there is a much that a Q, K, and A are out.

if you raise, whichi isnt a bad play, you should be check/raising the flop.

It never gets checked around in the party 15/30 game.