....did I do wrong here?

FullTiltPoker Game #192279067: Table Carey - $0.50/$1 - No Limit Hold'em - 19:20:27 ET - 2005/08/21
Seat 2: LadyLabia ($44.35)
Seat 3: X8oD ($12.40)
Seat 4: Juniorbluff ($91.55)
Seat 5: Spankenstein ($43.15)
Seat 6: ChiefConrad ($100)
Seat 7: rublish ($50)
Seat 8: Sean_ec ($103.95)
Seat 9: fire0420 ($80.05)
fire0420 posts the small blind of $0.50
LadyLabia posts the big blind of $1
rublish posts $1
5 seconds left to act
ChiefConrad posts $1
The button is in seat #8
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Sean_ec [Jh Jc]
CHEX ROUND sits down
X8oD folds
Juniorbluff calls $1
Spankenstein folds
ChiefConrad checks
rublish checks
Sean_ec calls $1
CHEX ROUND adds $20
fire0420 raises to $7
LadyLabia folds
Juniorbluff folds
ChiefConrad folds
rublish calls $6
Sean_ec calls $6
*** FLOP *** [4d 9c Qc]
fire0420 bets $8
rublish folds
Sean_ec calls $8
*** TURN *** [4d 9c Qc] [Jd]
fire0420 bets $12
Sean_ec raises to $88.95, and is all in
fire0420 calls $53.05, and is all in
Sean_ec shows [Jh Jc]
fire0420 shows [Qh Qs]
Uncalled bet of $23.90 returned to Sean_ec
*** RIVER *** [4d 9c Qc Jd] [2d]
Sean_ec shows three of a kind, Jacks
fire0420 shows three of a kind, Queens
fire0420 wins the pot ($167.10) with three of a kind, Queens
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $170.10 | Rake $3
Board: [4d 9c Qc Jd 2d]
Seat 8: Sean_ec (button) showed [Jh Jc] and lost with three of a kind, Jacks
Seat 9: fire0420 (small blind) showed [Qh Qs] and won ($167.10) with three of a kind, Queens

Its hard to get away from a hand like that. I think your in trouble no matter what u do. a c/raise on the flop would have been devistating. An option bad one that probably would have ended in the same result.

The only thing that I could see is sacrificing all of your chips. If you would have raised to $30-36 on the turn instead of all in...2 things could happen. He's either going to re raise you or smooth call. If he reraises....its a hard hand to get away from. If he calls the river is a scare card. I personally would have been content w/ the pot and checked it down.

Thats how i would have played it. I'm not at all saying that you played it wrong....or that my way is the correct way....its just how i would have played it...

It would take a damn good player not to LOSE a lot of money w/ that.

His bet on the flop says " something weird going on here" I would have raised or folded, if he re-raises right there you can get away now. But on the turn even though the J helped you it opened things up that will beat you bad with the straight possibility. I know it would seem odd for most of us forum people to play KT or 8T but at .5/1 NL crazy stuff happens. I could put the guy on KTs and be drawing to both the flush and the straight.

Hard to get away from here but I wouldnt have committed all my chips on third best hand.

Another question why did you play it so weak pre-flop? Whats the point of calling the BB and then calling a raise? Raise preflop with JJ or if you want to limp dont call a raise.... reraise maybe

Yeah I hate how you played it preflop.

Sounds like you were just meant to go broke on this one. If you raised preflop, then he came over you all-in, could you get away from it? If you played PF as you did, then raised the flop and he just called your raise. Would you think your set of Jacks were no good on the turn? Are you starting to understand why pocket Jacks are considered one of the hardest hands to play?

Probably the only way to keep from going broke here is to play how Doyle suggests to play small pocket pairs (including Jacks) in S/S. Play PF as you did, then fold to any action on the flop if an overcard comes. It's not a tournament. There's no pressure to double up. Save your money.

1) Raise pre-flop. If you'd raised pre-flop and he'd come over the top, you could get away from it. If he smooth-called, you were probably going to go broke.

2) There's really very little need to call this flop. Your opponent said "I have Aces, Kings, Queens, or AQ." Every now and then...this is an aggressively played AK or TT. You chose to ignore that information and draw for your two outs. Once you hit your "out", there was no getting away.

I suppose I'm the only one who's going to say that you played it fine.

Preflop, you can advocate limping or raising with Jacks in this spot, either one is fine, imo.

On the flop, it really comes down to a read on your particular villian. If you don't have stats on him, you'll just have to generalize his actions. Usually people don't raise out of the blinds with weak hands, so we have to put him on a big hand. However, I think we could put him on AK in this spot, depending on whether you see him fire continuation bets all the time, even if he misses, or not nearly that much.

On around a 22$ pot, I don't mind seeing a turn card for only 8$. You may be well behind the overcard, or any overpair, but he may be playing Ace high or tens and just calling the flop in position, you can see how he plays the turn. Many times I would be inclined to fold the flop, but its really not all that horrible to call the flop bet.

Once you saw the turn, you're getting all your money in, no question.

I'm going to reccommend doing something which will drastically improve your results, its just completely amazing and I must always advocate this. Get a live tracker for your tables, whether it be poker tracker or poker office. I have poker office and their live tracker is amazing. This way, when villian leads the flop, you'll have three main stats, you can customize stats, but the best are:

VPIP/preflop raise %/ Postflop aggression factor

--Now we'll know whether villian is tight/loose; aggressive/passive preflop; and aggressive/passive post flop. This changes your play greatly as you are in a very marginal situation here with jacks with a Q high board.

GL at the tables.

i'd raise preflop cause I hate being lost in hands.

On the flop you were "lost". You didn't know if you had the best hand or not...playing passively does this.

--

If I raise 3.5x the BB everytime I'm first in and I bet the pot almost everytime in position, how many times am I going to win if I have a weak/passive player in the pot with me? The majority of the time, unless he starts challenging me and re/raises my flop bet.

The problem with being passive is a scared mentality where you are always putting your opponent on a big hand that has you beat. This is fine to do some of the time, but if you are doing it all the time, you need to get away from NL.

Not saying you are a weak/passive player but being aggressive in no limit is the best way to go in my book.

Being aggressive also helps you develop reads of other players betting habits and the such. You will quickly learn what kinda raises certain people will call with and what hands. That is you can put someone on a hand in the first place without getting to a showdown.

Being aggressive gets you information. It's really that simple. Being passive losses you information. The more passive, the less info. The more aggressive, the more info you can get.

--

Turn, well, still lost, but we have a set, and well...sets are usually good...so we go all in. oops he has QQ...again...we are lost in the hand from beginning...end result..a big loss.

Ways to not be lost in a hand:

Always be aggressive.

I raise JJ most of the time preflop. Limping is ok here, but a big raise behind you...you need a read to continue with your hand. I normally like raising though preflop if I'm coming in cause it helps me define others hands. I hate feeling lost in hands and I usually control this by being the aggresor.

That's really all my advice. Being the aggresor you have to fire a little bit more, but it works for me and it is the most comfortable way for me to play NL.

IMO, the passive players usually lose and the aggressive players usually win. granted, you get idiots in both areas, it's kinda a grey area you need to find...but I think had you been the aggressor in this hand you coulda got away from it...although that turn was very dirty.

if you raise the flop he may just smooth call to trap and then you're done. if you raise the flop and he comes over the top it's an easy fold.

if you raise preflop and he re/raises you big, normally an easy fold.

if you limp/raise preflop, and then he re/raises your limp raise you can safely fold. Although he may also slow down with QQ fearking AA/KK...either way, this hand is sick...but I still say:

Always be aggressive (you can subsititute Almost always - sometimes here too)

/endlongrant

- Jordan

I think it depends on how much variance you're willing to deal with. The unbridled aggressiveness is necessary in tournaments, but not in cash games. You can make a decent profit (especially compared to limit play) and never get in much of a confrontation. With .5/1 blinds, you could quite easily be up $20 in an hour and never see a hand past the flop. The blinds are the same as 1/2 limit, so $20 could be viewed as 10BB. And you never had to show a hand.

If you can check your ego at the door, let players move you off hands like this for a while (which would've been correct, anyway, b/c you were beat the whole way). Eventually, you'll catch a monster and get all your money back (and more) in one shot by "walking the dog." In the meantime, selectively pick up small pots here and there when everyone else seems weak.

Remember the saying "lead, follow, or get out of the way." Drop the "follow" part and you'll be ok.

Like Blink, I'm fine with the pre-flop call. I hate the flop call, though. Let's pretend you don't spike a jack on the turn or river. What's your line on the turn and river if villian continues betting? Are you calling down the whole way regardless of what falls?

fire0420 has represented a very strong hand the entire way. I fold this on the flop about 99% of the time. The other 1% of the time I would make a small raise, and if he pushes I cheerfully fold. If villian plays AK this way, any raise on the flop should slow him down (if not fold him).

you could take this advice or...

you can also actually learn how to play well and be able to win at something higher at 1/2nl.

raise preflop every time.

if villain plays it passively earlier on in the hand, you're probably not getting away from it, but that's not the issue. when you see someone play jj like this, you put them on your buddy list and add a note saying "weak/tight nut peddler...bluff him liberally"

i'm not sure about being bluffed liberally. i wouldn't have been bluffed off that hand pre-flop. and i showed that a bet on the flop didn't push me off.

however. i def played it wrong. i thought i could be cute and limp, then was to stubborn to lay it down on the flop, and got burned.

but i dont think i showed any signs of being bluffed off pots easily.

sean

i was being over the top for effect. the point is, if it's a decision between calling and raising when you're in position preflop, you should almost always raise.
one of the big jumps you have to make if you want to move up to playing bigger games is that you have to be more aggressive because people dont just donate their whole stacks to you with TPGK, so you should really look to start raising pf more often (and post flop for that matter). in this hand, i feel that your postflop play was fine. although id say occasionally raise those weak flop bets from pfr's because they either mean a complete whiff or a monster, and it's better to define your hand sooner rather than later.

one mainly: you left it in that format.

otherwise I might read it.

apparently others have.
their advice is probably more useful, or at least full of the patience it takes to read your OP.