ignore the stakes, we are playing for a side wager, but these are the only heads-up cash game stakes where the stacks are 250 BB.

this is somewhere near the middle of the session. i have been playing considerably passive when out of position and slightly aggressive when in position. since my opponent is almost a maniac, i am letting him control the betting a vast majority of the the time. in other words, my goal is to let him win a lot of small pots while i aim for the big ones.

i am exploiting two weaknesses. the first is that he makes pot-sized bets when he is bluffing or semi-bluffing, but makes smaller (usually 1/2 pot and 2/3 pot and sometimes 3/4 pot) bets when he is value betting. the second is that he checkraises a lot as bluffs, and the checkraises are usually naked bluffs (not semi-bluffs).

this hand had me utterly confused.



$5 NL (1c/2c blinds) on pokerstars, heads-up

$4.50 approximate stack for hero
$5.50 approximate stack for villian

i'm SB with 9 8 .
i raise to 5c, villian calls.

(10c) 10 9 6
villian checks, i bet 10c, villian raises to 30c, i call planning to get aggressive on most (non-paint was my first thought) turns.

(70c) 6
villian bets 40c, i now hesitate but raise to $1.15, villian reraises to $4.15 (that puts me exactly all-in if i call), and it's $3 to me in a pot of $6.



i thought for a long time and finally folded. my opponent didn't show his hand, that bastard!

anyway, i'm wondering if raising the turn was a mistake. i think it was, but i'm not sure if i'm being results oriented seeing as i got reraised hard. some thoughts after the hand included "you would hate getting raised, so just call," but at the same time, i honestly thought i would take down the pot right there (until that scary value bet).

if i do choose to raise, i'm not sure if i raised the right amount (i raised about half pot more after the call). i thought about pushing but didn't like it much because of the scary value bet and the fact that i was usually only getting called when i was pretty far behind or possibly drawing dead.

i'm also wondering if this is a clear-cut call on the end or if this is a clear-cut fold or if it's pretty close.

i'll elaborate on some reads:

- preflop, i was actually limping most of my hands from the SB and folding some of them (there's really no need to play every hand when you have deep stacks). when i raised from the button, he reraised out of position with a decent frequency. the thought that he could be slowplaying a monster preflop did cross my mind, since he surprisingly didn't reraise.

- on the flop, like i said, the checkraise was almost always a bluff or semi-bluff. i should note that some hands ago, i made a steal bet on the flop in position with 9-high, he checkraised me on a semi-draw-heavy board, i called, he bet out on a brick turn, i raised twice the pot and he folded. (i didn't show my 9-high.) was waiting for the turn to raise a good idea? i thought it would extract more value that way, and while my hand was vulnerable, it also wasn't strong enough to reraise right here, i thought.

- on the turn, like i said, that value bet scared the shit out of me. i had no idea what to think, since i thought that was a good card for me. i should note that i had seen him play bottom pair pretty passively in small pots, but maybe the fact that i raised preflop could make him get more aggressive with bottom pair on the flop. this is, i think, the first push i had seen him make all session.

while he does tend to overplay SOME hands (he got way aggressive with kings when he raised preflop, i called, i checkraised him on a 10-high flop with middle pair, and he came over the top for about 4x the pot and showed his kings after i folded), i don't doubt that he would play a monster the same way.

thoughts?

aseem

p.s. i won't be back until about 9pm EST, so don't expect any answers to questions until later tonight.

:!:

are you serious? four hours and _NO_ replies?

aseem

You said you weren't going to be back until 9 EST.

What do you want from us, lame-o?

Ice

I see you really ARE having bankroll troubles.

I'm a decent NL heads up player. I think there's enough doubt to justify calling it, especially now that you picked up the flush draw.

Have you ever seen him go berserk on a bluff like this before?

At the point he makes the standard continuation bet
on the turn, I would probably just flat call, since we've
now picked up a gutshot straight flush draw.

He's apparently representing some type of hand, and
I think you have a ton of ways to improve on the river
at this point. Aside from the case 7 , I also think
any other , 7 or 9 makes you golden.

I know you said you planned to get aggressive on the
turn, but when he bets out, I would think we have
enough ways to improve here to want to see the
river. If one of our cards doesn't fall, and he bets again
THEN it may be time to put in a raise and take him
down, especially considering our 9's might be good
enough even if unimproved.

Flat call, then take the stand on the river.

You had a sick amount of analysis of your own. After reading it, I really got nothing. Although, I sort of agree that just smooth-calling on the turn may have been a solid play, especially after picking up the flush draw. However, when he raised and re-raised, I'd be awfully scared too. It would have to be a massive bluff to make an apparent value bet and then re-raise all-in. All told, given the action in the hand, I would have hesistantly laid this one down too -- but I would not have been very happy about it.

thanks for the replies.

i know it's easy to think that i should have just called the turn, but i'm honestly not sure if that's completely right. i feel that i am being a little results oriented and others might be, too (since the turn raise backfired on me).

can we discuss what makes calling that turn better than raising it?

aseem

I just think you've picked up a ton of outs that make you
the absolute best hand, instead of maybe being the best
at this point.

He acts before you on the river, and if any of your cards hit
you will for sure be able to get him for a huge bet, since
he'll have so much invested at that point, it'll be tough to fold.

If nothing helps you on the river, and he bets huge, it'll be
easier to get away from, IMO. If you get a cheap showdown
unimproved, that's not a bad thing either.

I think you want to see another card here before commiting
yourself too much into this one.

do i WANT to lay this down on the river unimproved?

do i WANT to show this down cheaply and pass up on possible value?

aseem

Both questions I think easier answered once a fifth card
is on the board. (and we see what action we are facing)

What value? The only thing you could bet on the river that has any hope of being called and ending up the best hand would be a lower pocket pair or something that paired lower than 9 on the river. Where am I going wrong here?

I don't like the raise on the turn AT ALL. You have a really "cool" hand, but it's not all that good against most of the hands your opponent may be betting.

The only real value with the raise comes when he folds a better hand. That, and when you get to protect your hand against his draw (remember, you also have a draw which makes it less likely he'll hit his).

Compare that with the disaster or raising, getting re-raised by A-6 and then having to fold with all of those juicy outs.

The play was to call on the turn and reassess on the river.

Well I geuss that settles it.

yes, it does settle it. thanks for the reply, daniel. :-)

if you still read this, daniel, given the way i raised the turn, does the push giving me 2-to-1 make this an automatic call, an automatic fold, or is it very close?

aseem

That depends how likely you think it is that he's already full. You have to ask yourself if he would play two pair or a set like that. If you are pretty sure he isn't full yet, then you should call.

In light of the fact that you had a potentially great hand AND position I would have just called the turn. You gained when he only bet a small amount which opened the door for you to just call and see a cheap river.

And then who knows? A perfect scare river card may have meant a check to you. And then.....

Best...

Yeah, you've got to just call the turn.

Look at it this way, you have one pure out to the SF, 8 more decent outs to the flush, and 3 outs to a straight that is just as likely to be as good as the flush. Add two clean outs to the full house, as well. Pretty much ignore the two pair outs, they're not very stable at this point at all. There's $1.10 in the pot, and you have .40 to call. This is an easy call, at least. Around 14-32 odds, and you're getting 4-11 from the pot, not to mention implied odds and the likelyhood that if you're good already you might catch a bluff by calling down.

But what about raising? If you raise with the best hand, he folds, and you win no more $$ with your decent hand and strong draw. If he just has overs, he has at most 6 outs, and at least 4 outs to beat you (since either of his higher pair could make your flush a winner). So if you don't raise the turn, and all he has is overs, he's already made a mistake by betting the turn. You don't need to raise to protect, or to run him off. Your bet would only have value if it was a pure value bet. It isn't. It's partially a value bet (but what can he call on this board that doesn't have you beat? You're basically hoping he has a club draw like you that you're beating now, so he'll put more money in with the worst of it), partially a protection bet (which, as I argued above, is unnecessary since 4-6 outs usually doesn't get there), and if you think he has you beat, it's partially a bluff. Your bet is trying to accomplish too many contradictory goals. Your call accomplishes its goal with certainty - you get the minimum in on a hand that could be good and could easily improve if it isn't.

Ok here's the crux of the matter - if *his* hand is good, then you have 14-ish outs to a better hand. If *your* hand is good, he has 4-6 (plus some if he's on a flush draw himself) outs to a better hand; he is not very likely at all to beat you on the next card. You're not giving up much equity if all he has is two overs if you just call. He might even only have one. If you raise and he reraises, you either have to call all your chips (not a good move with stacks this deep), or fold a potential big winniner. You avoid this by not raising the turn. See the last card cheaply.

Fantastic thread. Thanks for posting the hand, OP.

What's your strat? To keep the pots small until you land a monster and then hang him. So why raise with a pot sized bet on the flop with mid pair and an inside straight draw when you KNOW he's going to raise you and make the pot big.

Also, if your reads were right, you have to think the 1/2 pot sized leading bet on the turn means something.

Why by the way raise with that hand, from the BB? Sure loosen up but thats a prime hand for a free ride? And folding after all them raises? Seeing his hand would have gave you at least some info for another time, I wouldn't have started with that hand you could save your money for a big raise from the BB with a Killer; I think the standard for those type of draws is cheapness maybe the nickels weren't anything to you.

the OP is a mistake, i'll edit it. if i'm button, i'm SB, so i didn't raise from the BB.

and we weren't playing for nickels. i said in the OP that we were playing for a side wager and that this was the only deep-stacked game on poker stars.

aseem

I would think that raising from the SB is even worst. Sorry I don't know anything about side wagers and I do see c after 5 and another reply stating such, NL is a game of postion and paying to see the flop down there is a no no to anyone. But if you make a personal wager don't you know the player maybe the whole thing is a joke no?

The guest is me, what a c is I don't know? Where at by the by? I thought this might be on the Web .

Also if he is a very loose aggresive player why not wait for the big AA and drop the All-in on him? All you have to sense is if he has any luck for a draw right? I play poker stars test site and just enjoy the ride the mad men give me once they are so sure then I level them but poker an't meant to be played that way.

if you're the SB, you do have position postflop... the button is the SB when it's heads-up...

and there's a difference between playing a passive game and nut-peddling.

aseem

Well we will have to play some day. To bad about the nuts.

It's not nut peddling. You cannot afford to do that in HU play, not by a long shot.

The only problem is, we live by a hyper-aggressive code. We are poker players, and we are good ones, therefore we are agressive. However, against an aggressive opponent (especially heads up) the best strategy might just be to tone down our aggression and let him take the lead. You exploit their strategy, and you extract the maximum (he might keep firing as a bluff) while risking the minimum (just enough to stay in the hand). Don't take their aggression away from them by becoming the new aggressor, because it might lead them to a new, more difficult to counter strategy.

On AP, the BB has the button HU. I've also seen this done live before, in a casino. What makes one way right and one way wrong? Just curious.

I think since you had a read that he usually checkraised on naked bluffs reraising on the turn was a bad play for two reasons. The first is that if your read is wrong and he has anything at all your hand is obviosly beat. The second reason is that with a pair, a gut shot and a flush draw there are so many good cards that can come on the river and since you think he's bluffing you don't neccessarily want to lose your customer. Granted I don't usually advocate giving free cards but in this case you have almost all the drawing hands covered. If he has two big cards he's going to draw out on you some of the time however what if a big club comes hence making him aces up or kings up and completing your flush at the same time. Gin right? I think your fake trap turn play might have gotten you played off a potential big pot but its cool to hear that you are thinking not just flailing around like a blade of grass in the wind. Good luck. Hope my advice is useful.

I wrote this and then saw that Daniel had already responded and said pretty much the same thing a little more concisely. Oh well listen to him, I'll understand.

Edit: AP recently switched this. They've also added HU trnys, FYI.

AP was the "wrong" way by far, just as party still is (on their ring game tables, when it's heads-up, the BB has the button).

the reason is that in this setup, the SB has absolutely no incentive to complete since he is out of position the whole hand.

aseem

im thinking hes got top pair with a flush draw

im very suprised you layed this down even if he has the top pair you still have plenty of outs and if hes a maniac like you said always a chance he over played a k a q

it's close.

if i folded, i still had a completely fine amount of chips, especially relative to the blinds. i didn't want to risk it all when all his actions had me confused and my reads contradicted each other. i felt i had a solid edge on him and didn't want to lose all the chips in a gamble i could have easily avoided.

keep in mind we weren't playing for $5. :wink:

aseem

so did you win the "5 bucks" or not?

whatever it was, how did the side wager work? Did you trust the guy would pay 100 bucks or whatever through transfer?