Hey all. I'm looking for advice on how to play top 2 pair in PLO high. Every time I fold it to a big bet, it would've held up. Almost every time I play it til the end, I lose. Every time I chase a FH, I don't get there.
I play on Pokerroom, and noticed that many times on a relatively safe flop, when someone makes a really out of line big bet, top two pair would've held up. Still I can't bring myself to call a bet that's a third of my stack w/2 pair very often. I have a good idea I'm going to have to put up most of my stack by the turn and river, and I only have to be up against a set or get sucked out on a few times and I'm toast.
Any help w/2 pair would be appreciated. Thanks.

It's like overcards in Holdem, will allways be tough to play. You really don't give up much by just folding it to any serious action on the flop.

Good luck.

play them like porcupines fuck, very carefully. really the key is if you have redraws with them, then you can get more aggressive with them(especially flush redraws), but if you have very weak redraws or no redraws, then fold to aggression or if you get aggressive with it look to fold if you get called in several places

I happened to play a hand like this in PLO8, the idea's about the same

PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha/8, $2 BB (7 handed) converter

MP2 ($56.70)
CO ($150.60)
Button ($296.45)
SB ($154.50)
BB ($186)
UTG ($154.50)
Hero ($282)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 9:diamond:, J:diamond:, J:heart:, Q:heart:.
UTG calls $2, Hero calls $2, MP2 calls $2, CO calls $2, Button calls $2, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: ($13) 9:heart:, 7:spade:, Q:spade: (6 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Hero checks, MP2 bets $10, MP2 calls $42.35, CO folds.


===========================

MP2 is an aggressor while CO actually is an OK player.

On the flop, I checked, since MP2 bet almost the pot size and CO called. What did that tell me?


One of them had the bottom set, one of them is chasing. It's more likely that CO had bottom set.

Since I've got two Js, it's unlikely that one of them is chasing for straight.

So I potted it back hoping the bottom set fold, and made the chaser pay.


It worked.

Note that this play doesn't apply to headsup.


============================
Turn: ($127.70) 3:diamond: (2 players)
Hero bets $4, MP2 calls $2.35 (All-In).

River: ($134.05) 2:heart: (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $134.05
[color:#009B00]Main Pot: $132.40, between MP2 and Hero.[/color]
[color:#009B00]Pot 2: $1.65, returned to Hero.[/color]

Results in white below:
Hero has 9d Td Jh Qh (High: two pair, queens and nines).
MP2 has Ks Kd As 2d (High: one pair, kings).
Outcome: Hero wins $134.05.

From my experience, two pair (even the top two pair) will not win the majority of hands in Omaha. I think I read somewhere that the average winning hand in Omaha is trips (don't quote me on it though, but if someone can confirm or deny it would be helpful to many I believe). 8)

I wouldn't be calling any serious action with
top 2 pair, no matter what pairs they were
unless I had some BIG time redraws. Often times
when facing a lot of money bet at you, even if you
luck out and make your boat, it won't be good.

For PLO, it's usually a game of the nuts, and 2 pair
ain't ever anything close to that.

I ran the numbers on a poker calculator, and you were only 51% to win versus your caller. Getting your money in with those odds doesn't impress me, particularly since your opponent's hand could easily be stronger.

Also I thought it was pretty funny that you automatically assumed the CO folded the winning hand - most people at these stakes would not fold a set in that position.

Next time you lose $134 overplaying two pair, will you post about that?

Oops, scratch my number - I didn't realize it was PLO8. His backdoor low draw makes your odds worse - your EE is .46, your opponent's is .54.

happened to play a hand like this in PLO8, the idea's about the same

PokerStars Pot-Limit Omaha/8, $2 BB (7 handed) converter

MP2 ($56.70)
CO ($150.60)
Button ($296.45)
SB ($154.50)
BB ($186)
UTG ($154.50)
Hero ($282)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with 9Suit: Diamond, JSuit: Diamond, JSuit: Heart, QSuit: Heart.
UTG calls $2, Hero calls $2, MP2 calls $2, CO calls $2, Button calls $2, 1 fold, BB checks.


Hi.

Fold preflop.

Good luck.

[quote="JacKingOff_suit"]I happened to play a hand like this in PLO8, the idea's about the same

MP2 is an aggressor while CO actually is an OK player.


I like MP2's play here - I think he played it perfectly.

If you want to push a flush draw off (whether you have a str8, set or 2 pair), you probably want to wait for the turn and hope he has no low draw to give him insurance. Also you have to consider stack size, so forcing him to call for all his stack on the turn is far more effective than 90% of it on the flop with only 10% left.

Smash, any thoughts on the bit in italics?

The only time I have any confidence in top 2 pair is against AA only raisers. You find alot of these online, they basically put up a large sign that reads "Hi my name is tightrock41, if I raise preflop my hand contains 2 Aces." Well now you know half of their hand, and top 2 becomes a more solid holding. It's still somewhat treacherous and caution must be excercised but in PLO high these people are my best friends. I go out of my way to call raises from these guys, they overplay those two aces to such an extreme it's almost unfair.

Smash, that's your new gf?

Hi.

Fold preflop.

Good luck.

Why?

I believe he was referring to the 9JJQ played in a PLO8 game. So why fold preflop? Because in PLO8 that hand sucks.

If you want to push a flush draw off (whether you have a str8, set or 2 pair), you probably want to wait for the turn and hope he has no low draw to give him insurance. Also you have to consider stack size, so forcing him to call for all his stack on the turn is far more effective than 90% of it on the flop with only 10% left.

Yeah, I agree. But I like to push my money in when I am about 50/50, they have to gamble with me. If I wait for the turn, I will be seriously an underdog.

Oh btw, I saw you played at PS on Tuesday night, I didn't sit down because you would be on my immediate left and on your left was some guy named something like "stud7..." with a big stack over 1k. I decided to wait for a better spot, actually there were 2 tables open later at $600 which were much softer.

I believe he was referring to the 9JJQ played in a PLO8 game. So why fold preflop? Because in PLO8 that hand sucks.

Explain?

What do you plan to do with 9JJQ in Hi/Lo split? Flop quad Jacks on a high only board or play for Broadway.

What do you plan to do with 9JJQ in Hi/Lo split? Flop quad Jacks on a high only board or play for Broadway.


I really have no problem with players stick to ABC tight PLO8 plays. That's why it's even more profitable.

ABC is one thing. But I love players who play Q hands for half a pot and get all the money in with the nuts and no backup or just a set while I'm freerolling for their half of the pot....now that's profit, zero risk all reward.

Hmm, on a second thought, I think you are correct. Good thinking.

Here's how he got that stack (you should have sat!):

POKERSTARS GAME #2408386463: OMAHA HI/LO POT LIMIT ($2/$4) - 2005/08/23 - 22:09:39 (ET)
Table 'Goto' Seat #4 is the button
Seat 1: Maverick123 ($200.80 in chips)
Seat 2: pepperdiablo ($301.80 in chips)
Seat 4: gerberj ($83.25 in chips)
Seat 5: unkypunky ($76 in chips)
Seat 6: Chamonyx ($395.30 in chips)
Seat 7: studd7card ($396.85 in chips)
Seat 8: Big G Kid ($145.80 in chips)
Seat 9: gatotigre ($197 in chips)
unkypunky: posts small blind $2
Chamonyx: posts big blind $4
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to Chamonyx [Tc Kc 6d 2d]
studd7card: calls $4
Big G Kid: calls $4
gatotigre: folds
Maverick123: calls $4
pepperdiablo: calls $4
gerberj: calls $4
unkypunky: folds
Chamonyx: checks
*** FLOP *** [3d 9c 4c]
Chamonyx: checks
studd7card: bets $24.70
Big G Kid: calls $24.70
Maverick123: calls $24.70
pepperdiablo: folds
gerberj: folds
Chamonyx: calls $24.70
*** TURN *** [3d 9c 4c] [Qd]
Chamonyx: checks
studd7card: bets $121.80
Big G Kid: calls $117.10 and is all-in
Maverick123: calls $121.80
Chamonyx: calls $121.80
*** RIVER *** [3d 9c 4c Qd] [9h]
Chamonyx: checks
studd7card: checks
Maverick123: bets $50.30 and is all-in
Chamonyx: folds
studd7card: calls $50.30
*** SHOW DOWN ***
Maverick123: shows [5c Ad 9d 8s] (HI: three of a kind, Nines)
studd7card: shows [3c 3s 4h 5d] (HI: a full house, Threes full of Nines)
studd7card collected $114.70 from side pot
Big G Kid: mucks hand
studd7card collected $590.20 from main pot
No low hand qualified
*** SUMMARY ***
Total pot $707.90 Main pot $590.20. Side pot $114.70. | Rake $3
Board [3d 9c 4c Qd 9h]
Seat 1: Maverick123 showed [5c Ad 9d 8s] and lost with HI: three of a kind, Nines
Seat 2: pepperdiablo folded on the Flop
Seat 4: gerberj (button) folded on the Flop
Seat 5: unkypunky (small blind) folded before Flop
Seat 6: Chamonyx (big blind) folded on the River
Seat 7: studd7card showed [3c 3s 4h 5d] and won ($704.90) with HI: a full house, Threes full of Nines
Seat 8: Big G Kid mucked [Ac 2h Jd 3h]
Seat 9: gatotigre folded before Flop (didn't bet)

This has nothing to do with anything, but Gatotigre's a crazy transvestite who sings cabaret songs for a living.

for real, yo. Funny guy.

Wow!

The reason I didn't sit down was because I thought I saw you, pepperdiablo, and may be plo8 and another good player were there, and I didn't know studd7card before so I assumed he's a decent player because of his stack size.

I don't like to sit down at a table that has too many good players. I could handle up to 2 but more than that the game is tough and boring.

Why were you calling on the flop and turn by the way? According to Smash's system , your oop and had zero chance to scoop. :roll: No nut flush draw, no nut straight draw, no nut low draw...

Some notible poor players here,
- Big G Kid (always buy in with small amounts at the $200 to $600 tables, the only ONE time he won from me was by sucking out on the river while I put him allin on the flop. I love him! )
- studd7card (well, we learn this from reading his play here)
- Maverick123

Go to ribbo's site and you can visit the aquarium.

[quote="JacKingOff_suit"][quote="Chamonyx"][quote=JacKingOff_suit]


Why were you calling on the flop and turn by the way? According to Smash's system , your oop and had zero chance to scoop. :roll: No nut flush draw, no nut straight draw, no nut low draw...
[/quote]

Cause I'm stupid, I guess :-)

I think my reasoning went something like this:

On the flop I was last to act on the bet, so it was not going to get re-raised on this round. It just didn't feel like anyone had the nut flush draw, so my second nut draw was probably good, as well as three other 5's for a straight for half the pot ( but enabling me to manipulate the lows). An A (although unlikely) probably gives me the low.

On the turn I am again last to act, and am getting 4:1 on my money with a very weak diamond draw and ISD added to the mix.