This is one of those hands that makes people question whether they even know how to play this game. I have been in discussion with a friend for about 30 minutes and am using every possible avenue to determine where I went wrong?? I know I haven't posted much on here but, I respect some of the posters that I have read over the last 6 months (AKi and SuitedUp!!) and would appreciate any and ALL comments, suggestions, and ideas from all levels of play.

SB ($258.85)
BB ($272.45) Loose likes to see flops and bets into most flops. LAG
UTG ($219.90)
UTG+1 ($211.90) The word donkey fits instead of UTG+1, dream to be at anyones table.
MP1 ($107.50) no real read so far fairly new at the table.
Hero ($111.20)
MP3 ($220.40)
CO ($135.65)
Button ($46.10)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 9:spade:, 9:diamond:
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $2, MP1 calls $2, Hero calls $2, 3 folds, SB completes, BB checks.

Okay medium pair in position; was limping a mistake to start.... hmmm....

Flop: ($10) 7:diamond:, A:club:, 9:club: (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 bets $8, Nice, middle set. I will raise to clear the field to go heads up with the flush draw. Hero raises to $16, SB calls $16, BB folds, UTG+1 calls $16, MP1 calls $8.

ALL CALL WTF!!!

Turn: ($74) 5:club: GREAT!!
(4 players)
SB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP1 checks, Hero ????.

Okay club comes. I want to put down the hero's play, but since this is the most crucial part of the hand, this is where I am looking for advice/suggestions. Results to follow, as this hand will get more interesting on 5th.

1. Move in on the flop.

2. Since you didn't check behind.

3. Is this a joke? What's hard about the turn play here?

You understand that your min raise on the flop blows donkey, right? If you're not going to move in there (which you clearly should) you have to *at least* raise enough so that 8T and flush draws shouldn't call. You didn't.

Good luck.

Grats on hitting the FH on the river. Play it right next time.

Smash,

Notice how I didn't include you in as one of the posters I respect; however, I am glad you replied first. 1, move in on the flop??? Why??? Do you make money when you play??? If I am wrong in challenging you, then justify the move in at this point... 3. The turn card brought the flush against three opponents, so it is obviously out there. What is the joke, the check, not betting?? What exactly are you saying???? Who bets $8 and cold calls $16 without having SOME legitimate draw????

I want to respect your opinion, but "Move all in on the flop and then just trash talk" defeats the purpose of this thread.

Finally, your final sentence.......well you will find out later. Be constructive, dont be condescending.

Thanks for your input though!!

first

Notice how I didn't include you in as one of the posters I respect


K.

Wait for someone else to tell you to move in on the flop here.

If you don't understand why you should stop playing NL immediately.

Good luck.

$16 pot move in for $100

Explain to me how this makes sense?

I have middle set and two donkeys in the pot, why and I moving in for an 8 bb win?

Tell me why you think this is the correct play.

You make yourself look stupid with trying to make others feel stupid with your assumption of all world NL knowledge. Back your words up for once.

Why move in for $100 for a $16 win.

Why?

You make yourself look stupid with trying to make others feel stupid with your assumption of all world NL knowledge.


You're right, I'm just terrible at NL.

Thanks for playing.

We have some lovely parting gifts for you, like never being a winning player.

Take care.

great reply...........thanks for the input!!!

Next!!!

I have middle set and two donkeys in the pot, why and I moving in for an 8 bb win?

Tell me why you think this is the correct play.


It makes more sense than min raising a coordinated board like this.

Nice, middle set. I will raise to clear the field to go heads up with the flush draw.

Min raising doesnt do this. Protect your hand!!! Alot of people will not fold a flush draw so get your money in. You may not have to go all in but at least a healthy amount, at least make it 35-40. Pushing isn't even that bad either. You'd be suprised what people will call you down with. It;s sure as hell a much better move than min-raising.

If they had any draw or made hand they would be retarded not to call your little raise.

Just listen to Smash. It's generally a +EV decision. And you shouldn't say you welcome all advice, and then throw a hissy fit because you don't get a "NICE HAND." You played this one incorrectly, be openminded and maybe you'll learn something.

As the others have said, a bigger raise (or in this case a push) on the flop is necessary to push out the draws. This is NL, so for the villains to call a min raise when they may have the opportunity to wipe out another player on a future street when their flush hits, makes complete sense.

In your example, you then should check behind on the turn because it is very possibile against this many villains that one of them has just made their flush and is trying to trap you. By checking, you get to see a river card that could give you the Full Boat, rather than putting additional money in the pot, unnecessarily, when you could be behind.

Besides, If you were going to bet, you would need to make a reasonable bet at this point (say at least 40-50 into the 75 dollar pot?) That would basically commit you to this hand (having put 60% of your chips in play, and you would then be forced to call a check-raise that would pull you all in. Or, if just called, you would be forced to call a bet on the river.

By just checking, you still can get away from this hand if one of the villains makes a big overbet on the river if you believe you are behind.

Yeah, what the hell's their problem? I hate it when people pay off my set. WHY MUST THEY DO THAT?!? Why can't they just FOLD?!?


I knew this thread would be trouble when I saw, "...Daniel please help," and "...those I respect (Aki, Suited Up!!!)." Don't get me wrong, Aseem and Kurt are great guys, but the fact that you don't respect most of the people in this forum really speaks to what kind of person (and player) you actually are.

Hi all,

Interesting hand....

The issue with this hand is you want to build a pot while not allowing flush draws to draw profitably...

You have flopped a big hand and any non-flush draw is drawing very thin.... You WANT the non-flush draws to CALL... by min-raising, you are enticing anyone with A9 or A7 or 777 to make a big raise.... Then you can move all-in.... This is the positive when you flop a big hand like this....

Going all-in on the flop is playing scared... If a flush card comes, it will be staring you in the face and you have position... You can get away from i t if you want.... Overbetting the pot to chase away a draw is not how you win at poker. Isn't the purpose of poker to make others play improperly? They can easily make a correct fold if you move all-in.

Its a $10 pot with a bet of $8... Raising $8 + $18 to $26 would make the field face a $26 bet with a $24 pot, this is the preferred play...

However, given how many callers came in.... this hand would have worked well the way you played it (betting $16) if a club doesn't hit the turn...

Do you see why? With 3 callers of $16, the pot now jumps to $74 and you will have $90 left on the turn.... NOW that the pot is big, you can bet most of this and take this pot down.... I would push all $90 in at this point... At this point, a flush draw is more likely to call your overbet given that they have already put good money into the pot (AND YOU WANT THEM TO CALL THIS BET --- YOU MAKE MONEY WHEN OTHERS MAKE BAD CALLS).

If no club hits turn, you have big edge and can push it....

Importantly, nobody pushed the flop ON YOU... A9, A7 and 777 are unlikely to be out... You enticed those hands to challenge you and didn't get any takers...

Since club did hit on the turn, I like the check given there were 3 callers on flop and you didn't get raised... A flush draw is very likely out and you have avoided a check-raise when you still have good outs if the board pairs... AND you have position to decide whether to call if the board doesn't pair...

net net, well played except the size of the flop raise... Make it $25 to go...

looshle:

looshle I was dealing with a board that had JUST a flush draw. Their wasn't three to a straight and a flush on the board. Board wasn't that scary to move my entire stack in IMO. Remember we only have like 20 seconds to execute the correct decision. I felt I wanted to build a pot and make a nice turn raise with a blank. Moving in here makes zero sense.

I agree that the flop bet should of been bigger. Good point. I appreciate your post.

econ tim:

$8 in pot, $8 bet, $16 raise, and 2 cold called $16, getting 2-1 on their calls I was just like "Wow, one guy can't have an honest draw, and the other must, while the bettor who now calls the raise either had a flush draw as well or a weak ace." Remember these are "quick reads", I am just trying to put two or three of these guys on hands to make another QUICK evaluation (be ready for my next decision) with my turn card coming.

Not everyone thinks about pot odds/implied odds, or the EV of a particular situation. They just call and pray. I honestly thought that two of these donkeys were just being a part of the action with very weak hands.

BeanGW:

I just cant stand when someone has the gall to add in a weak reply with "Go all in" and "you are a donkey" with out explaining himself. I just want honest opinions and discussion. Believe me, I am open to any and all advice. Smash is nothing. I am not making this post about smash.

I agree about a bigger raise on the flop, good point. So you think that my mistake was on the flop and NOT on the turn??? I really shouldn't put ANY money on the turn?? If it was you, what exactly would you of done? Thanks for a great reply! (hopefully I can get more out of you!!!)

custom36:

My point was Two players oop are calling $16 cold. What could they have, I guess is my response. I want all replies from all levels. This is a good discussion, it just sucks that it was ruined to start. Don't judge me because of how I feel about Smash, because that isn't how I feel about all.

biggamefrank:

You gotta love when intelligence hits a post. "The issue with this hand is you want to build a pot while not allowing flush draws to draw profitably... " YES THANK YOU!!!!

"Going all-in on the flop is playing scared... If a flush card comes, it will be staring you in the face and you have position... You can get away from it if you want.... Overbetting the pot to chase away a draw is not how you win at poker."

This is a winning player talking here. You are in position and can re-evalutate on a later street. Does it get any better in NL???

So Frank my question to you is two fold:
1) Should I have raised in position pre-flop
2) If I did say 3x the blinds and it was all called with that flop, what is my move now??

Thank you Frank!!!

(Lol, i feel like such a hypocrite, I posted an earlier thread about how I wish this forum would get going instead of everyone posting in General, then Daniel reformats, people start posting here, and I disappear? :shock: )

Anyway, the way I look at this hand is, you've got a donkey, a loose player, and 2 guys whom you don't have a read on. Since this is a $1/$2 game, it's likely you're up against some relatively weaker players who probably won't put you in sticky situations (like reading that you fear a flush and then stick a knife in you and bluff you if/when the club comes). While it is true that raising the minimum makes the bet $16 into a pot of $18 makes it a total of $34, which is about 2:1 odds, which is about right for a flush or an open ended straight (I hope I know how to calculate pot odds here... :oops: ). Also, because it was raised the minimum, your opponents might not be overly scared by it (they wouldn't necessarily think "oh, he's raising the minimum, that's fishy..."). Once the first guy calls, the pot then becomes $50, which really tempts the subsequent people to call. In a coordinated flop like this, what I always fear is that first caller, because then it makes the pot look that much sweeter to everyone else.

Now, this is the way I'd play the hand (bear with me, I'm a rookie that makes donkeys look good ). Considering that the pot, once it goes to you, is at $18, why not bump it up to, say, $40 (I suppose it is a pretty big chunk of your chip stack, that's a problem)? That puts the pot at $58, a call of $40 for someone is tough (no pot odds for flush or straight draws, $40 is a pretty sizeable chunk, it's a pretty intimidating raise). Odds are, you'd eliminate the field down to what may be a weak ace or something (which would be drawing dead to runner runner, unless they had A 4).

Alternatively looking at the field (I dunno, I've never played $1/$2), a raise to around $28 could also do the trick (though if they calculate pot odds, they'd be getting it for the draws), reducing the chance of that cascade effect ("let's all call!"). A raise of $20 more to the original raiser isn't that harsh, and he could still call it ($44 in the pot), and this does narrow the field down for you. Since it is MP1, whom you don't have a read on, this is an opportunity for you to get to know him too.

This is my two cents, please bear with me and my rookie ways :oops: . Please, you kind posters out there, don't just comment on the OP only, comment on my post too, huh?

Edit: Sorry firstclay, I started this before you posted your response, so you might be yelling at me for some of the same things you just posted. :?

Basically, my thoughts regarding the flop bet are as follows:

1. First off, you do realize you need to make a bet here on the flop. You have a stong hand, but one that is vulnerable to drawing hands. You want to make a bet that would be a mistake to call by a drawing hand.

2. In NL, the idea of implied odds is absolutely huge. A villain would not be making a mistake by calling a bigger bet in certain situations where the actual odds are poor, because they can "make-up" so many additional bets when they hit their hand. This is especially true in multi-way pots.

3. Therefore making a small raise is obviously incorrect. Making an overbet of the pot to say, about twice the size of the pot ($40) wouldn't be a horrible second best play, IMHO. It would certainly be a better play with deep stacks where all-in plays aren't as necessary.

But, pushing is better here in part because if you made a 2x pot sized bet, you would now be down to $70 on the turn. If you have even one caller, the pot on the turn would be bigger than your remaining stack. This creates a very difficult situation for you on the turn if/when a club hits. I think it's best to try to avoid these situations when possible.

4. Your push will be paid off very often in these games. Anything you gain by keeping the additional players in with weak hands by betting small is made up for by the one or two villains who call your all-in.

5. Your fold equity increases with the size of your bet. Although you will be paid off often by a worse hand, there is no shame in taking down this pot right here. It is absolutely not, IMHO, playing scared, when you are up against a larger field. Heads-up, with good reads on your villain, you may be able to play the hand differently.

Finally, you are getting all your money in the pot with the best hand, and with redraws that can beat a drawing flush.

Who is that girl?

You should have raised preflop to begin with. Pocket 9's are a solid hand and by raising you are getting people with stuff like suited connecters to fold. Your flop would have been ideal if you had raised preflop, but now you are likely up against a made flush and maybe even a ace with a flush redraw.

You didn't define your hand, and now have no idea if you are beat or not.

You should have taken Smash's advise on the flop, but you didn't.

With all that in consideration, check the turn, and be ready to fold to any large bets on the river if you don't hit your boat or quads.

looks like Heidi Klum to me



okay. Like veryone else has said, you need to bet more on the flop. I think you need to raise at least 30, but again, the pot will be so big on the turn, you would need to push regardless because you would be getting nearly 2-1 effective on your money, and essentially 4-1 on your money if called, and since you would have 13 outs to a redraw on teh river if you pushed the turn, that would still be correct, so if you're gonna have to push the turn, then you should push the flop. I don't see how you aren't getting this. As abrasive as smash can be, he is normally correct in what he says, so whatever issue you have with him, you should listen to him

Fucckking classic

Her name is Marissa Miller. I know, dead ringer for Heidi K. in some pictures.

Wow... just realized that was my post #1000. Yeay me!

In an NL game with some limpers, it's usually not a great idea to raise PF with pocket 9's. Basically, the plan is to limp PF, set it, or forget it.

Ok, I think that the All-in theory baffles me. Why am I pushing $100 to win $8??? Why don't I just muck 99 preflop?

Here is my thinking:

A) I am willing to risk the turn card and a $18 loss if it comes club. I can check turn, see if I fill up with my wonderful position and if another club comes or I don't fill up on river I can reevaluate on the river. (Then it basically becomes a pot odds call)

It sounds like noone is considering folding if the turn/river get worse?? I am definitely considering folding if board gets scarier.

C) My quest is for a middle-big pot here with my risk being no more than $18 I have now invested. This is why my min. raise is good IMO, because I haven't committed myself to anything further if the board gets uglier. Card comes blank on Turn I have a nice $100 bullet to throw in the pot and any donkey drawing to his 20% (flush draw with one to come) shot can feel super free to call me at this point.


All good stuff, I appreciate the time you are all taking in this post.

C) My quest is for a middle-big pot here with my risk being no more than $18 I have now invested. This is why my min. raise is good IMO,


This is why you're a losing player. It's amazing you try so hard to fuck up such an easy hand.

Good luck.

I disagree.

I raise preflop to thin the field with 9's so that when I am in a pot where I have a set and 2 cards to a flush, I don't have to be as concerned about people playing stuff like 56s. If he raised, he likely gets called by one or two people with an ace, thats who you want to pay you off here. At 1/2 NL, people rarely fold aces, your going to get paid off huge if raise instead of risking the loss by letting everyone and their 3rd cousin see a cheap flop.

I either lose $18 when the club comes or win $75 when no club comes or more if donk calls off chasing. Again Smash, going all in on the flop to win $17-$18 is +EV for someone that plays SNG Poker. If it works for you then Great!!

Why don't you just try and be positive? What do you accomplish by being condescending? I promise you that I will not respond to you unless you come up with something intelligent. So consider your input invalid/ignored from here on out.

Good Luck...Take Care...and TY!!

ok, that is reasonable thinking, what do you raise to pre-flop? what if you get re-raised? the beauty of limping is it is so easy to get away from when re-raised...

to all in this thread, it is OK to play post-flop poker... pushing all-in every time you flop a good hand is not the only way to skin a cat.. if it works for you then good luck to ya but poker is just more complex than that being optimal strategy...

NL poker is about making some tough decisions... you can avoid this by pushing all-in but that doesn't necessarily make it more +EV... you are just avoiding a big part of the game that can be very profitable.

The OP's strategy has merit... but you have to think about it differently...

the size of the flop raise is definitely debatable and I think it should be bigger and I think he sees the merit in it being bigger... but as it stands, the size of that raise isn't the only factor in this hand.... if you think it is, then you don't understand post-flop play....

you CAN make laydowns and be a good winning player. the OP had a logical strategy of seeing the turn card before attacking this pot... I can see good logic in that. if you can't, so be it.

now that I think about it more,

there is one key assumption here in everyones thinking:

Just HOW big are the donkeys at the table?

If guys are often calling huge all-in overbets into small existing pots, then moving in right there makes a lot of sense....

but if:

guys are more willing to donk off their chips only after putting money in on flop -- than the OP's strategy has more merit.... especially so since it is better to get all your money in with 1 to come than 2 to come...

There are 3 key advantages in waiting for the turn to push:

1) You make a bigger amt when turn comes no flush card
2) You get all-in with SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER odds if you DO get called on the turn....
3) A 'smaller than all-in' raise on flop might induce a worse hand to re-raise you...

all at the cost of missing out on picking up a sure small pot when you move all in on flop and everyone folds....

to me, this is just a trade-off in how you view your opponents....

at very low NL tables, moving all in makes more sense
than at something like 2/4...

1/2 NL is prob in between. often donks... but often not SO MUCH SO that they will call huge all-in overbets into small existing pots.... if you think differently... so be it.

C) My quest is for a middle-big pot here with my risk being no more than $18 I have now invested. This is why my min. raise is good IMO, because I haven't committed myself to anything further if the board gets uglier. Card comes blank on Turn I have a nice $100 bullet to throw in the pot and any donkey drawing to his 20% (flush draw with one to come) shot can feel super free to call me at this point.

You're essentially saying the same thing eeveryone is but it sounds like you want to put your money in on the turn instead of the flop because you only want to allow them 1 card to draw out on you. It sounds like you're afraid of being outdrawn by a flush on the flop because they have to chanes at it. You want to commit yourself on this flop, because you are ahead, you can only put your money in when you are ahead and you should be committed to this pot, and commit yourself on the flop. Since you are going to be committed you might as well push it in on the flop because no matter what your money would be going in on the turn.

But the way you played it, you have to check the turn and hope the board pairs.

<< Since you are going to be committed you might as well push it in on the flop because no matter what your money would be going in on the turn. >>

no, that is ridiculous... your money is not going all-in no matter what on the turn... it depends on the flop action and the turn card.

there is some logic, even in donkeys... a true donkey will put a lot of money in chasing a flush when the pot is bigger than when it is small... even with only 1 to come... they have committed a bunch of money and they want to hit that flush, god damn it.... and then complain that they are not hitting their draws and that is why they are losing....

<< Since you are going to be committed you might as well push it in on the flop because no matter what your money would be going in on the turn. >>

no, that is ridiculous... your money is not going all-in no matter what on the turn... it depends on the flop action and the turn card.

So if you commit yourself on the flop, you will fold or check scary turn card? That, my friend, is what is ridiculous.

Do you even know the definition of pot commitment?

Flop: ($10) 7, A, 9 (5 players)

looshle I was dealing with a board that had JUST a flush draw. Their wasn't three to a straight and a flush on the board

68 is open ended. T8 is open ended. JT has a gutshot. 56 has a gutshot.

There was no raise preflop, you can't discount these hands.

its not ridiculous. If you decided to quote the rest of my post I would've epxalined how this is happeneing. By calling the flop alone our staqck is down to ~100. Obviously we want to raise here, so by raising to 30 or 40 our stack is now down to anywhere between $80-70 and if we get a caller or two the pot will be too big for us to really lay down if we are behind considering our outs. We are looking at an $18 pot before we make even one move, we raise it up to say 40, we are now looking at a $58 pot and we will have $70 left, and that is just by our actions alone here, so if we get one caller the pot will then be laying us ~$100 and we will have $70 left getting 1.3 on a turn push, but with the implied odds of being called we are getting well over 2-1 to push on the turn, and that is a winning play considering our boat outs. NOw if we have another caller on teh flop the pot will be even bigger, so by raising to 30 or 40 basically we are committed to the pot. If he had a deeper stack then we wouldn't be so commited, but our stack situation indicates that any normal raise that we make on the flop that gets called commits us to the pot, so therefore we push on the flop. The min raise that the OP made priced in every draw and was just dumb, this is a coordinated flop and we don't have a deep stack

i understand that he was kind of an ass when he responded, but he is right. I would have def bet more on the flop. It is wrong more often than not to hit that little button that raises the min in no limit. You don't have to like smash as a person, but take his advice seriously, along with many other regulars in the strat section. I agree he was kind of a dick, but at least take the good parts of his response, and talk shit after

Yup, this one is trivially easy. At this limit, someone is going to call you with their flush or staight draw because they are bad at math.

At higher limits, you can bet less than all your chips, but you still need to give the callers less than the correct odds on completing their draw.

He was quoting me, still wrong nonetheless.

to all in this thread, it is OK to play post-flop poker... pushing all-in every time you flop a good hand is not the only way to skin a cat.. if it works for you then good luck to ya but poker is just more complex than that being optimal strategy...

the size of the flop raise is definitely debatable and I think it should be bigger and I think he sees the merit in it being bigger... but as it stands, the size of that raise isn't the only factor in this hand.... if you think it is, then you don't understand post-flop play....

you CAN make laydowns and be a good winning player. the OP had a logical strategy of seeing the turn card before attacking this pot... I can see good logic in that. if you can't, so be it.

Frank understands this game.

There are 3 key advantages in waiting for the turn to push:

1) You make a bigger amt when turn comes no flush card
2) You get all-in with SIGNIFICANTLY BETTER odds if you DO get called on the turn....
3) A 'smaller than all-in' raise on flop might induce a worse hand to re-raise you...

One thread leader needs to read this, or he will be stuck in $25 max games the rest of his twenties.....

loosh:
You want to commit yourself on this flop, because you are ahead, you can only put your money in when you are ahead and you should be committed to this pot, and commit yourself on the flop.

If I am ahead....then why am I going to push others out??? I want to make money not push it away. What if the club obvious draw is a dream 7c??? and I stack two pair and duel flushes???

no, that is ridiculous... your money is not going all-in no matter what on the turn... it depends on the flop action and the turn card.

So if you commit yourself on the flop, you will fold or check scary turn card? That, my friend, is what is ridiculous.

Do you even know the definition of pot commitment?

I know when to fold especially middle set if the board comes runner runner club or runner runner straight and their is heavy action before I act. I am not going to dump off chips just because I am pot committed.

I think you have some valid points loosh, thanks for your input.

to all in this thread, it is OK to play post-flop poker


Sure it is. Not to misplay it like you did in this hand, though.

Good luck.

firstyearclay, you my friend are a huge censored...

You want to make your opponents make mistakes. In general min-raising is retarded. In this situation min-raising is especially retarded.
A) You give everyone odds on you; The straight draw, the flush draw. You are practically give the overset draw odds on you...
If someone has a crummy hand, you're not making an money on them anways because they aren't gonna call with a crappy hand when there is already a raise and a reraise ahead of them.

It would be hugely better to reraise either 40 more or all-in.

40 more can get a reraise by someone overplaying an AK/AQ, and you have the added advantage of getting a BS call by a flush draw, having them miss the turn, and then giving them another chance to misplay.

At this limit all-in can easily get a call by one of the donk with an AK or AQ, and even they probably see that calling with a flush draw is retarded. You will get action when you are way ahead, and lose action on the hands that can outdraw you.

But I still stick by my original thought:
firstyearclay, you my friend are a huge censored...

to all in this thread, it is OK to play post-flop poker


Sure it is. Not to misplay it like you did in this hand, though.

Good luck.

A) Go All-in on the flop, get called by ACE high flush draw, get stacked -EV

Raise.... keep draws in, possibly make make more money or lose less +EV

Good theory.... especially since you think I fill up on the river in a earlier reply and now think I lose???


Good Care Take Luck LMAO!!!!

Good theory.... especially since you think I fill up on the river in a earlier reply and now think I lose???


Never said you lost, said you misplayed it.

People misplay hands and win all the time. That's the reason I don't have a car payment.

Take care.

You asked for advice and you got it. Then just because people told you the truth you got all butt-hurt. That really leads me to believe that you weren't looking for advice, just people to be like, "oh, you played perfectly." When that didn't happen you replied by defending your play and basically trying to tell everyone else they were wrong. Don't ask for advice if you think you are right and just want praise, cause you aren't going to get it.

firstyearclay, you my friend are a huge censored...

You want to make your opponents make mistakes. In general min-raising is retarded. In this situation min-raising is especially retarded.

Agreed thanks for taking the advice from the nineteen ther people that agree I raised incorrectly. Way to jump on the BW bro!!


A) You give everyone odds on you; The straight draw, the flush draw. You are practically give the overset draw odds on you...

Umm I am not laying 24-1 for an over set to draw on me....get a clue.... that is the single dumbest thing said in this post. Congrats you get the award!

If someone has a crummy hand, you're not making an money on them anways because they aren't gonna call with a crappy hand when there is already a raise and a reraise ahead of them.

Did you notice that I had TWO cold callers oop???

It would be hugely better to reraise either 40 more or all-in. Agreed!

40 more can get a reraise by someone overplaying an AK/AQ, and you have the added advantage of getting a BS call by a flush draw, having them miss the turn, and then giving them another chance to misplay.

Great say this is you??? You bet $40 and the club comes?? What are you gonna do???

At this limit all-in can easily get a call by one of the donk with an AK or AQ, and even they probably see that calling with a flush draw is retarded. You will get action when you are way ahead, and lose action on the hands that can outdraw you.

Read Franks posts thanks!

But I still stick by my original thought:
firstyearclay, you my friend are a huge censored... You feel better now?? Good put your hard on away......

I just don't understand smoosh's condescending tone that is all. I want to hear what all would say and want to take tim to comment on what all have to say. I didn't play it perfectly that is why I am seeking advice/answers. I just dont agree with ALL-IN on the flop for $17. I never said anyone was wrong, I just want a deeper explanation to "why go all-in on the flop", not "Go all in on the flop donkey"???

I just don't understand smoosh's condescending tone that is all. I want to hear what all would say and want to take tim to comment on what all have to say. I didn't play it perfectly that is why I am seeking advice/answers. I just dont agree with ALL-IN on the flop for $17. I never said anyone was wrong, I just want a deeper explanation to "why go all-in on the flop", not "Go all in on the flop donkey"???


Beacuse of the substatial overlay provided to draws by the current pot size and the likleyhood of more than one caller to a small bet or raise, you make it correct for draws to call unless you overbet the pot by a large amount. Because of the number of potential callers, many hands have substatial equity here to call any raise that doesn't massively overbet the pot, and you take a hand you could force players to make inccorect decisons on (the first player to call your all in almost allways wrong, if there are two cold calls of the all in, the third caller is almost allways right because of the size of the now massive pot) and instead alow them to make *correct* calls by not using the most important tool in the NL players arsenal, pot size/call size ratio manipulation.

Moving in here forces everyone else to make a tough decision, call behind, or fold a strong draw.

You tend to make money when people make bad decisions. Give them the oportunity to do that.

OP, I have fully given the reason as to why you need to push the flop, and you haven't even addressed what I said. You are either choosing to ignore it, or for some reason don't accept it. Of course there is nothing wrong with playing postflop poker, but you really messed this one up everywhich way. If you had a deeper stack then you wouldn't need to push the flop and just make a decent raise instead of the bad raise you made. YOu are generally ignoring the advice you've been given and trying to argue with smash, and that doesn't normally work out for those who try. Either accept the advice, or be more tactful in disagreement

Hero checks.

River: ($74) A:spade: (4 players)
SB bets $28, UTG+1 folds, MP1 raises to $89.5, Hero ????

Comments or Suggestions.

are you serious, you just filled up, what do you think the obvious play here is

MP1 raises to $89.5

why don't you think I noticed that, of course I did. He probably has trips, push in and laugh, like I said, you filled up, what is the question, other than another 9 what other card would you want to hit

other than another 9 what other card would you want to hit

A 7 or a 5 so that whoever had aces up would have a lower boat.

a7 a9 and a5, now have the OP beat.