i'm talking about hands that aren't quite trash medium hands (e.g. 9-8-7-6), but not quite wheel hands (e.g. 5-4-3-2). more like something in between, like 7-6-5-4 or 7-5-4-3 or 8-6-5-3.

a hand like 7-5-4-3 seems pretty trashy at first sight, but doesn't it have great implied odds in LOOSE games?

i mean, like, if you make the nut low on an A-2-x board, you're getting a LOT of action from weak aces or aces up or frustrated counterfeited A-x lows or 2-x lows and whatnot.

also, just as the 6 is a very powerful card combined with wheel cards, i think a 7 can also be a semi-powerful card combined with these middle cards.

on the downside, they don't make the nut low very often at all, and the only straights they make are rarely (if ever, i'm too lazy to think about it) the nuts for high by showdown.

this is similar to the reasons why you don't play middle trash hands like 6-7-8-9, because they can never make the nuts for high by showdown without leaving a low possible, and they can never make the nut low.

however, unlike the middle trash hands, these cards CAN make the nut low sometimes, and i think what's more important is that you get a lot of decent action from worse high AND low hands when you make the nuts in either direction (moreso the low) in today's loose/weak/soft games. so, good implied odds.

discuss?

aseem

I don't like playing middle cards in Hi/Lo, or even too much in Hi. The implied odds ARE there, however, if you want to do it. If you have a hand like 5678, then the only time you will make the nut straight a low is possible and you will either get half the pot because you have the nut straight or nothing because a flush card fell on the river or something like that.

The only hand in this range that I would play would be 3456. Even that is extremely stretching it. The only time I can see myself playing 4567 is on the button or in the cutoff in a full game where EVERYONE has limped to me. All those limps mean A2 and A3 combinations, and some of the later limps mean hands like 10JQK and other hi-only hands (assuming everyone in the game has a basic understanding).

In those pots, your hands are going to hit because all of the low cards are gone and all of the high cards are gone, leaving the deck rich with your cards.

Even then, though, you won't make a low (because they are all out), and your high MIGHT be the nuts.

I am a pretty tight O8 player, and I am throwing away 3568 and 3456 EVERY TIME in O8, from pretty much every position.

You have to think about the fact that without an ace in your hand, you are a big underdog to win a pot. If enough people limp in to make your call make sense, the downside is that basically all of them will have an ace or a 23 combination, meaning that the nut lows you can make are gone in other people's hands.

I mean, if you are playing holdem, you can make an argument for having HUGE implied odds with basically any hand, because the shittier the hand is, the harder it is to put you on it. Just because your 8-3 will get paid off hugely when it hits doesn't mean you should be playing it all the time, you know what I mean?

I (almost) never play the middle connecting cards, even if double suited if I can help it (in a standard game). Too often IMO you will be on the low end of the straight, or have a mediocre flush, which will only hurt you in the long run.

IMO - save your money pre-flop and throw these hands away. 8)

I am beginning to like you.

27os has great implied odds as well in NLH against AA once it flopped two pairs. Does that mean we should play 27os (or any two hands) just because of its "great implied odds"?

I am not sure if I am supposed to be flattered, disgusted,or a little curious...lol

Don't worry, I am married. :-) I should say I like your posts.

To quote Homer Simpson "I don't go for your backdoor shenanigans. Sure I'm flattered, maybe even a little curious..." LOL

The majority of my posts are spot on. The rest are way off. Lol. 8)

a hand like 7-5-4-3 seems pretty trashy at first sight, but doesn't it have great implied odds in LOOSE games?


No.

Why do you want to play more hands?