This is probably a pretty standard hand, and I readily admit that I blow at Omaha. So gimme a hand. We're playing 9 handed at a party poker 100 max table. I have about 135. I've played very tight after the flop, and have been waiting for good turns to raise. I have shown down two hands. Once when I boomed the turn with the nut straight and the nutflush redraw (but lost to an all-in player who made a boat on the river), and once with a top set that was the nuts.

Aggressive (but good) player limps UTG. I limp on the button with: JcJs3c2s. 7 players to the flop I'm playing a lot of hands for cheaply in position preflop, because there are many bad players going too far with their hands.

Flop: 4c5sKc

Checked to me. I want visibility, and realize I can take advantage of a tight image from thinking players. I bet 5 dollars. Aggressive Good player calls, MP calls. 3 to the turn, with 22 dollars in

Turn ($22): Qc

UTG player booms for 22, MP folds.

What do I do?

For what it's worth, the first think I think is "KK or QQ." Very aggressive players, and he hasn't seen me bet a draw yet.

Ice

I fold it, that jack high flush is in a bad spot. When you see someone smoth call your bet on the flop they are more then likely drawing. The club on the turn and he hammers the pot, I'm out of there.

Aggressive GOOD player hammers the pot out of position, and you have the second nuts?

Would he do this with top set, hoping (logically, as I've played VERY tight) I can fold a small flush? Would he do this with a small flush, assuming my flop bet meant a set?

Is anyone else folding here against an aggressive (good) player?

Ice

This is PLO High?

Don't even limp with that PF. It's a good way to get slaughtered. You're looking at trouble + trouble + trouble. Set of Jacks? Vulnerable. J flush wayyyy vulnerable.

Make a raise, try to steal (unlikey at $100) and then get the censored out of Dodge on the flop unless it runs you over.

Then again, I'm the rock of rocks in PLO.

That call pre-flop was very loose, in my opinion.

Also, I think you have to fold this on the turn and wait for a better spot. You have the second-nut flush, but unless you have a read on the player as only doing this with a set, etc., you have to let it go. I am a tight player, though, so maybe this isn't your style. I say he isn't going to bet a set here in hopes YOU fold, because there are still other people in the pot that could bite him. He would know this as a good player, and he would definitely not bluff into a multiway pot here. Also, his UTG limp pre-flop smells of aces with flush draws to me. What else would he do this with that DOESN'T have an ace? If he has AN ace, then he has THE ace that beats you, in my opinion, so get out.

dude, fold that trash preflop. that solves all your problems. honestly.

in multiway pots like that, a jack high flush draw will be trash.

in multiway pots like that, even a set of jacks can often be trash (middle set) or easily become trash (multiple redraws against you).

the 3-2 is also pretty horrendous.

if you want to get serious about the game, i think you should invest in poker tracker omaha. why, you ask? i'm guessing your VP$IP might be on the high side.

although, you say you play pretty tight postflop, so maybe your looseness preflop will negate the effects so even poker tracker might think you're playing reasonably tight overall.

really, that's an easy fold preflop.

aseem

and this is also an easy fold without a solid read.

either you're:

- drawing dead against his nut flush.

- reasonably ahead (but not way ahead) against his set.

really, the mathematical chance that he has the Ac along with another club in his hand is pretty high.

unless you have a solid read that he's playing opposite man on you (acting weak on the flop and acting strong on a bad turn), fold the turn. if you think you're good, repot obviously.

aseem

No, it isn't, for the following reasons:

1) There are 3 or 4 players in the hand that absolutely blow, and are coming over the top on the turn with Top-and-bottom pair, so I want to be involved in as many pots with these assholes as I can be.

2) Did you even read #1??

Look, I realize the hand's pretty trashy, but I'm limping on the button with almost any four cards here because the blinds haven't raised a single time, and I will absolutely get paid if I flop or turn a real hand. Unfortunately, we're in worst-case scenario here, heads-up with a good player.

In reasonable Omaha games, I'm significantly tighter than I am in all hold'em varieties, but I absolutely do not need you to tell me to fold this preflop here. I understand the thinking, but the players involved are so bad that I'm worried about MAXIMIZING my chance of getting their money. I probably don't have time to wait for a super-premium situation, because they'll be broke before then. Capice?

So can you just get over yourselves, and suggest to me what the best course of action on the turn is in this scenario, and get off of your "fold preflop" horses?

To recap, the player who bet is very very aggressive, and could be betting with a relatively wide range of holdings.

Please.

Thank you.

Ice

Like I said, he's been ultra aggressive. He'd fire out here with a set, and a weaker flush, and probably the naked Ac. He's a perceptive players, so he knows I've been playing very tight postflop. He also knows I might be aware of all this, too.

If I repot here, he would probably reraise with the nutflush, and only the nutflush, fold all other flushes (at best, the third nut flush), and call with a set (he's shown that he's got some gambooool in him).

My concern is that a raising can give him a chance to make a small-ish mistake, but is a HUGE mistake when he's got the nutflush, as well as when he folds his underflushes.

I feel like calling here and folding to a board pair and a bet is the right move (if he has the flush, he has to put me on a set if I call, and check the river). I'd likely call if a safe card comes (he's unlikely to make a huge bet with the nuts), and betting for value he checks.

I'm concerned by not raising the turn I lose value from a drawing set, though....

More.

Ice

haha, i understand your reasoning about preflop, and being on the button DOES make a ton more hands playable, but it's still a borderline decision.

i realize that you're saying your opponents play horribly postflop, but you really do have to take the EV and playability of your hand into account. J-J-3-2, even double-suited, just doesn't hit with the flop often enough and hard enough to make it worthwhile, and when it does, it's still not a strong hand.

like i said, a jack high flush draw isn't strong and even a set of jacks aren't great, and the 3-2 can only make two non-nut straights... basically, the only decently good flops for you are Ac-Kc-Qc, top set of jacks on a ragged board, and flopped nut full house).

but alright, i'll get off that horse. anyway, don't think i was just following the bandwagon. you know i don't read any other replies before posting mine, so i just posted the first thought that came to my mind after i read your hand.

ok, on to the turn.

if he's a thinking player, you say he might be doing this with a non-nut flush, the nut flush or a set (also take into account the possibility that he's bluffing on a scare card). by raising, you get him to fold non-nut flushes and bluffs, call with sets and repot with nut flushes.

so, using that logic, i agree that calling down is the best play, and check/folding if the board pairs on the river. this way, you encourage him to fire again on a brick river with non-nut flushes (and possibly fire another bluff, if he thinks you had a set and were drawing to a boat that missed), you lose the minimum to nut flushes, and you lose the minimum to rivered boats, and you might encourage the set to fire a bluff on the river.

don't worry about protecting your hand against a set. his pot bet aready does that.

aseem

easy fold PF

easy check on the flop(sorry, there aren't all that many thinking players at this limit)

even easier fold on the turn

I'm ignoring preflop comments because I choose to do so.

I agree I probably should've checked the flop.

But the turn play is what I need help with. This guy WAS a thinking player, and I HAD seen him play quite a bit.

Based on the range of hands I put him on, why is this a fold?

Ice

Hi Iceman!

Well, we can start by killing that rumour that you blow at Omaha.

Your starting hand here is pretty marginal but the table you are describing probably justifies riskier play, despite the fact that it is the 'Good Aggressive Player' after your stack.

Like a good police partner, you need a good backup when you are getting played back at by a player you have identified as both good and aggressive. I did a quick spreadsheet of your good river cards against a 'Good Players expected range of hands and it doesn't look too good. Just the fact that it is the "GAP" betting into you may be enough reason to fold off and play the weaker players you have in the table.

The flop has no str8 or flush on it so it is all draws: What kind of draw would your GAP have? His flush draw would not be lower than Q unless it was a fixture of some sort of weird wrap hand. He may also have you identified as a player that will lay down a low flush hand ... these are all guesses. The fact is the pot-sized bet in the middle of the felt which means that the GAP is betting on something.

You remember the premise that Paul Samuel made regarding JJ in Omaha in his early "Math and Poker" column. Just in case you don't remember it, here it is:

http://www.pokerpages.com/articles/archive...es/samuel02.htm

(I just 'found' this article for another post at FCP involving a set of jacks)

When you play JJ, you are voluntarily playing a hand that even if you hit a set of jacks, you can never have the nuts on the river. (read the article, it shocked me too).

Consider the fact he may think you are tight enough to be forced off a marginal (yet winning) hand. Your varience may take a turn for the worse, but reraising and forcing him to make a hand is an unpleasant option.

I am taking a different approach to your hand and hope my comments and the reference helps you out.

Good luck in your games!

IMO - fold pre-flop. You will only get into trouble on the flop, even when you get a good one (such as the one we have here).

Since we played this hand (lets say we were in the BB and got to see it for free!) - fold to that turn bet. 8)

Despite your aversion to preflop strategy on this hand, I might add that you requested help in playing better PLO. You wouldn't have had any $ involved in this pot and been at this point had you understood preflop strategy; This helps you be a better player, ergo, answering your original topic.


The correct move, IMHO, is to fold. You shouldn't have bet at the pot after the flop w/ a pair, non-nut str8 and 3rd nut flush draw, but since you did and got potted on the turn when the flush hit, you should fold. Your own read on the guy was "Aggressive Good player". I think you were beat and would have folded.

because bluffing in PLO is obscenely dumb unless you are against a very good player that can fold . Ignore the PF if you want, but there's no way in hell that I'm playing that hand PF. NOw if you had the JJ and had a 9 and an 8 with it, then cool, but this hand blows and you need to fold that crap PF everyday all day

I'm new to PLO (high) myself, so take my analysis with a grain of salt.


If you have lousy players at the table as well, then I think betting here was a mistake. They aren't going anywhere, and you don't have anything. If you had caught your set, then maybe it was worth trying to get rid of the good players and leave the bad. You'd have a hand to showdown the bad players as they say in all the books.




Sounds like a good reason to fold. If you really don't have a handle on what he's playing, I'd say look for a better place to get your money in. Even if he had a line on your tight play, he'd still have to bluff the bad player off which is much harder to do.