$3/6 omaha hi/lo, ten-handed

i post in the CO, get dealt K 7 3 2 .
six limps, i check, button folds, SB folds, BB checks.

(8 SB) A 9 7
four checks, MP2 bets, MP3 raises, i three-bet, BB calls three cold, three folds, MP2 calls two more, MP3 calls.

(10 BB) J
three checks, ...

no one to act behind you.

do you bet here or take the free card, and why?

i think this is routine, and i'll say what i do and what i think is correct after a little input.

aseem

I am going to take the free card. By betting, you are just opening yourself up for a raise and then you are just putting more money in with a hand that has great potential, but not enough to really want to put in that many more bets.

On the other hand, there are a bunch of cards that give you the two-way nuts, and raising here will give you a BUNCH of profit in the long run. I figure you have the 9 remaining hearts and any 4, 5, 6, or 8. The 4, 5, 6, and 8 of hearts are HUGE cards for you. By my count, that is 21 outs. After subtracting a few for what are possibly dead cards and cards from other people's hands, you have a conservative 16 outs. You are 2:1 to make your hand on the river, and any hand you make will give you half the pot. However, some of the 4s, 5s, 6s, and 8s might quarter you.

I am confusing even myself, so I say check and take your free card.

easy check.

Betting here does little for you then bloat the pot alittle more. If you don't hit a heart on the river you are playing a pair of 7's.

Edit* didn't see it was high low.

I'm still checking.

let's do it the manual way, then i'll run some simulations.

by the way, fwiw, i used to think this was an auto-check.

(this is a hold 'em nuance that i'm used to... monster draws on the flop should often be checked on miss turns as you could easily get raised/isolated and you're an underdog heads-up, and you might not have an equity edge if you don't have enough callers.)

two hearts definitely give me the high nuts (Qh and Th). so, that's 2 definite outs.

two hearts pair the board (the Jh and 7h), but they leave no low possible. i'll count them as half outs since i could lose to a boat (not unlikely given the flop action), so we'll add another 1 out.

of the non-heart cards that give me a low and leave me with just a pair of 7's for high, there are three 4's, three 5's, three 6's and three 8's for a total of 12 outs. these give me the nut low, but i will almost never get the high half and i can sometimes get quartered. the minimum should be 3 partial outs and the maximum should be 6 partial outs, so i'll say 5 is on the more liberal and probably more realistic side.

the 8h, 6h, 5h and 4h give me the nuts for high and the nuts for low. i am guaranteed half of the pot, virtually guaranteed three quarters and oftentimes the whole pot. so out of 4 outs, i think 3.5 outs is realistic.

the 3h counterfeits my low but gives me the nuts for high while leaving a low possible. since i'll get half the pot, count that as another 0.5 outs.

if we add it all up, that's 2 + 1 + 5 + 3.5 + 0.5 = 12 partial outs, or roughly 2.5-to-1 against.

since i can't be sure of getting all three callers (what i need to make this profitable), i think this is a check.

BUT, we're forgetting one very important consideration...

can we promote our hand at all? (buy more outs)

aseem

I don't see us being able to promote more outs. As it is O8, people play basically all aces, which means that our sevens ARE NOT good, under ANY circumstances, as far as I'm concerned. I don't see us being able to convince someone that their high isn't good. I say no, we have the 12-15 outs that we have agreed on, and that is it. O8 isn't the best "misrepresenting your hand" game.

if it were me, id bet.

you have a lot of outs to scoop the pot, with enough callers even being quartered isnt a big deal. i dont think you can bluff anyone out of course...

then again, it appears to matter little to how i play omaha hi/lo. i win a little if i play real tight, i win a little if i play looser and throw out flops that didnt hit.

just my own experience...

I would bet the turn as you have have outs for the high, outs for the low and enough outs to at least 3/4.

Haven't read the responces yet, but I say bet.

We've got the grandmother of all drawing hands here. any heart that doesn't pair give us high outs, any low heart but the 3 gives us a massive scoop/3 quarter.

EDIT: Just read em over. As far as promoting our hand, I don't think we really can. 2 pair probably isn't folding here, a set definately isn't, IMO. But there's value in betting all our monster draws.

Boy, you REALLY don't wanna see the 3 , do you?

On the flop, I may not have 3-bet it there, as I would want more people in the pot there I think for when I get my nut flush. Unless you are sure that they are going to call 2/3 betsw cold, I might just check there.

The turn though is interesting. You are on a draw for the nut high, and currently have the nut low. I don't like giving people a free chance to possibly beat me both ways in O8, so I usually put a bet in there (rightly or wrongly so, I guess we will find out when I scroll down). If raised, I would re-raise depending on where the re-raise came from. 8)

Psst. Rocket. There's no low out there yet He's drawing to that, too.

you're dumb, can't you read, GFY, ESAD, etc etc etc.

Good to see ya today

i'd check and take the free card, but what do you do if this is pot limit. if it's pot limit, i'd bet the pot because i have a hand that can scoop or 3/4 someone for all the money. what would you do if it was pot limit?

Check here - you have no hand and your draw is not quite strong enough. Your three-bet of the flop is excellent. That's the key.
When you have a stronger hand on the turn you can bet and reap bigger rewards. Take the free card here.

i concur, good sir.

aseem

check on turn seems good. It looks like someone else has 2-3 anyways, esp. the BB.

I just don't understand 3-betting the flop. I guess you did it because you want to get more money in when you are going to win more than your fair share and because you want to 'promote' outs.

I don't see how 'promoting' the high outs really works here, since the only thing you could hope to kick out that would 'promote' is something like bottom two pair.

I guess it makes sense to try to kick another 2-3, but wouldn't the 2-3 put everyone on a high hand? Also, the pot is most likely going to have at least 16.5 bets in it (if MP2, MP3 call and possibly a limper cold calling) so calling with a 2-3 is probably only a small mistake if it even is one (the BB probably has 2-3 and something else the way this hand played) and only getting action from a 2-3 is not good.

Calling the 2 bets on the flop seems to offer a better chance for players to throw bad money into the pot. You don't mind having wrap straight draws, non-nut flush draws, and weak combo hands like 2-4-10-8 putting more money in the pot. You also run the risk of kicking everyone except MP3 out of the hand with a 3-bet.

I think it's really close in terms of EV if the betting stopped on that street, but if you hit either draw, they will be drawing very slim on turn.

Of course you should bet.

This isn't anywhere near close. If you fold another 23 1 time in 20 this bet is +EV. Not to mention getting 3 to 1 with 5 outs to scoop/3q, getting more money in the pot for the low draw from weaker flush draws that will fold to a clean low river that's not a heart, etc. etc.

In PL you'd check, obviously, but here with 3 callers, in limit, you have to bet. The primary reason is to fold naked 23s who've now missed the low draw and are looking at another big bet to call with uncertainty as to what made hands behind you will do in terms of raising. This isn't even a disaster if it ends up heads up back to you for another bet.

smash, i'm honestly not sure if we can fold a 23 even 1 in 20 times.

what fish folds any semblence of a draw for just one bet?

i mean, these same fish go crazy over A-2-x-x thinking "i have a low draw!" and "oh man, i made my low, i win!!" three-quartering these fish is what makes the game so profitable, right?

if i get 3 callers, it's +EV. but with 2 callers, it's -EV equity-wise.

i'm not sure i completely understand promoting our nut low draw when almost no one folds a low draw, much less a nut low one.

the only reaosn i though betting might be correct would be to promote my high hand, which is currently just a pair of 7's. if i hit two pair on the river or trips and i can fold a potentially better high hand, that is pretty big, no?

aseem

Tell me what folds here that doesn't increase your equity.

wow, you're asking way too much of me at 3 in the morning.

but if we're drawing to the nuts regardless of what people are holding, how do we really increase our equity if some trash folds?

i mean, a heart gives us the nuts whereas anything else leaves us with just a pair of 7's (or sometimes two pair / trips, and that's my only concern about promoting our high hand so that we can win the pot in these instances).

a low card that's not a 2 or 3 gives us the nut low, and a 2 or 3 counterfeits us and leaves us with no low. yeah, we might fold a 23 so that if a low card falls we don't get quartered, but i really don't think that's happening even 1 in 50 times.

i mean, if a lower flush draw folds, how does that increase our equity?

if bottom pair with no redraws folds, how does that increase our equity?

well, i guess our equity will go up slightly if these hands fold because so much as an overcard threatens our current high, but i'm very reasonably assuming that our high isn't good right now, so there's not much to protect on the high side.

aseem

well, i guess our equity will go up slightly if these hands fold because so much as an overcard threatens our current high, but i'm very reasonably assuming that our high isn't good right now, so there's not much to protect on the high side.

It's not about protecting the hand, it's about increasing equity. Almost all folds are good here. Folds that aren't good are drawing dead for the high, and while it makes made hands more money than you when they call, it still makes you money.

You understand almost half the deck gives you at least half the pot here, unless there's another 23, and if there is you should give him the chance to fold.

obviously I failed to type in the word "draw" after the words nut low...

sstupyaasi

lol :wink: