in the heat of battle, I can't think what the best play is...
how's this ?

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Actuary is UTG with Ad, Qh.
Actuary raises, Actuary calls, MP3 calls.

Flop: (9.50 SB) Qd, Kc, 3c (3 players)
BB bets, Actuary calls, MP3 calls.

Turn: (9.25 BB) Ts (3 players)
BB bets, Actuary calls, MP3 calls.

River: (12.25 BB) 3s (3 players)
BB bets, Actuary calls, MP3 calls.

Final Pot: 15.25 BB

this time I called down...

Without a read, raising flop is OK, but fold the turn.

no me gusta

I'm folding the turn.

Why raise on the flop? If your answer was to get information, then you got it but ignored it!

I would have just snooth called on the flop. You don't have a marginal hand that needs to be protected. I would look to lose the minimum here and MAYBE fold the river after calling the flop and turn since you have outs.

SInce your opponent three bet from the BB he likely has AA, AK, KK, or maybe QQ JJ. You can't beat any of those hands other than the JJ and if he had that hand protecting your AQ would be unneccesary.

You COULD have called the flop and folded the turn actually. If you know your opponent has AA, AK, or KK, you'd be drawing to two wins against the first two hands. If he has KK you'd have 4 outs.

After all that mumbo jumbo, I think calling the flop and folding the turn is the BEST option followed by calling the flop, turn, and river.

I'm with the noob on this one.

I just wanted to add something that I left out of my initial response. You have to discount your gutshot outs heavily, not only because one could complete a flush, but because you will split the pot with anyone who has an Ace.

holy cow.

I'm honored to be stickied.

Daniel, you choose and type fast...

anyway..defending the play..or at least what I thought at the time...

I would say you give way too limited of a range of 3-betting hands..for this stakes..players do crazy things (just look at me)

given it was 3-way..throw in 77-TT, AQ-A10/A7s....KQ-K9s...
some never raise..some raise silly stuff
for what it's worth

What about raising the flop to protect against the flush or str8 draws...mp3 might have

Even getting 3-bet on the flop doesn't make it 90% certain...

Calling down a 10BB then 12BB pot is wrong?
I was thinking wa/wb...the str8 and flush draws notwithstanding..but I wasn't going to raise again.

what makes anyone so sure I'm beat? 90% of the time.

MP3 was a fish, BB was aggress..but only based on about 20 Pt hands..so assume no read, I did.

maybe I'm a fish...I'll keep reading these and posting


edit:
Almost forgot..thanks to all for the critiques once again.
8)

"I would say you give way too limited of a range of 3-betting hands..for this stakes..players do crazy things "

You cant use this as an excuse for poor calling/raising. Just because it is low limits doesnt mean every opponent is a maniac/fish. If anything, they play more straightforward and simple, such as his 3-bet pre-flop, indicating a strong hand. True, some opponents will reraise with poor hands, but what hand exacly do you have beat, besides a low pocket pair?
AJ AK AA KK QQ 1010 all have you beat. Even marginal/poor raising hands have you beat (K10,Q10,K9,KJ,KQ)

"What about raising the flop to protect against the flush or str8 draws...mp3 might have"

Why protect against these draws when you yourself are probably well behind in the hand against the BB? Whether he hits his draw and beats you or he doesnt and the BB beats you, you're still beat and youd still be putting unnecessary bets into the pot. Unless you have incredible reads on both opponents and somehow you know that the BB is bluffing (unlikely)or on a low pocket pair (also unlikely) and that the other player is defintley on a draw, there's no reason to jam.

Here is a common misconception: You CAN'T "protect" against a flush draw. If player number three happens to have one, he ain't folding. If he happens to have 10-J, he ain't folding.

The only legitimate draw you can protect against is a gut shot straight draw (4 outs). Not worth risking a raise IMO.

I talked to Erick Lindgren about the hand tonight and he agreed with me 100%. In fact, he thought raising the flop would be an absolutely horrible play.

He'd likey fold the turn also since he may only have two pure outs and a couple split outs.

this is great advice. Many players will go to the river with a flush draw regardless of the odds, so if they have the odds, all your raise is doing is making it even more correct for them to call, and you are just padding the pot with a second best hand.


daniel, what is your play here if we call the flop, and we make aces up on the turn(with a complete flush draw, and w/o completing the flush draw). Cause that would really make things interesting


I'm only calling this down if the villian is a complete lag, if a general player I peel and fold UI

I probably wouldn't raise with AQo UTG. I might call, I might fold, but 4 of 5 times I'm not bringing it in for a raise there.

After the BB's 3 bet, its hard to NOT put him on a big hand. Im looking to flop 3 queens here, or a straight etc. But just hitting a queen isn't good enough. Against KK your drawing practically dead, against AA you are drawing to a queen, etc. With only 1.5BB invested, I say its time to move on. Calling the BB's 3 bet is an easy call imo, but once you only hit seccond pair on the flop, and are facing a bet from the BB raiser, I say its time to move on.

I just don't understand why you would just call him down the rest of the way. IMO that seems like a really weak play with a really weak hand ( 2nd pair, best kicker ) when for all we know you could be drawing EXTREMLEY slim. What happens if you DO hit one of your "gin" cards on the river, lets say an ace, BB bets, you raise it and are three-bet? I really think either folding on the flop ( my first choice ), or calling the flop and folding an un-improved turn are the best options. But I would NEVER just call that hand down till the end.

Maybe im wrong here, and If I am so be it... but I just don't see the value in calling the rest of the way.

the better had AQ (not clubs) for the split
3rd player had 9,T


FWIW, I'll stop posting hands here, conicidentally, I say that on the one Daniel picked out of the hat, but that's just coincidence...I appreciate his time.

The reason is I'm unable to properly reconcile what the consensus is from hand to hand. Many of you are great players, while most of you are parrots for those players. I guarantee I could re-post a hand posted by {fill-in-the-blank-with-solid-poster/player} and claim it as mine..and it'll get ripped.

Until I'm able to better sort the good from the absolute horrible advice given here, it's best to remain quiet. Otherwise I'll keep getting bitter or frustrated as other have and take it to personal.

Obviously, I have a ton to learn, and am not a strong player, barely winning in sshe. It's just the range and seemingly inconsistent and OP biased advice that's getting to me.

It's not you, its me.

thanks for all the time taken to crtique hands posted.

sincerley,
Actuary.

I probably wouldn't raise with AQo UTG. I might call, I might fold, but 4 of 5 times I'm not bringing it in for a raise there.

Folding AQ UTG is incredibly weak.

In a 10 handed ring game? I don't think so. Thats my opinion though.

Theres a big difference between AQo and AQ suited.

Theres a big difference between AQo and AQ suited.

Of course there is but AQ is still too strong of a hand to fold. Sure you don't have any information yet but still, folding it seems way too weak to me. I may be the wrong one but more often than not, I think you MUST play it UTG.

NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! Absolutely do no such thing! Seriously. I read the hands you post every day and look for them. You might not always FEEL like you're getting anything out of the feedback, but all the discussion makes you THINK about what you're doing. That's the most important thing. So keep posting. Really.

I think you just might dislike money. A-Q offsuit is a standard PF raise in an unopened pot.... yes, even from UTG.

Actuary, stop being a donk. You know we enjoy your hand posts.

One thing you might want to try is posting the hand, and your thoughts on each stage of betting. Why you are making the play you are... and what other options you considered but decided against.

Seriously, the motives behind each decision you make are of much greater importance than the outcome of the hand.

Does anybody like reraising the flop but then folding to the three-bet if you have a read on the guy?

The reason I thought raising the flop might be OK (although I would probably call) is that BB 3-betting standards could be a wider than normal. If he 3-bets TT or 99, then our raise might get him to slow down and let us take the lead.

But I'm reconsidering since we're way ahead of those hands and we can't protect against other draws (since they don't fold). Maybe we'll fold a gutshot.

I'm worse than you and I'll still post hands here. Part of the joy of poker is that there is no "right" answer. There are better and worse answers but no right answer. Therefore you'll get a wide variety of responses. My favorites are actually the hands where some of the venerated posters disagree - Akishore and Smash come to opposite conclusions.

Plus remember that it's about a billion times easier to look at a posted hand and come up with the best (or better) play than it is to make that play in the heat of the moment. I looked at this and said "call the flop, fold the turn" but in reality I probably don't play it that way in the heat of the moment. Reconciling that "what you should do" with "what you did" is the key to becoming a better player. Sort of how chess players work - they can't possibly look at all potential plays and how they play out but they can use past experiences to help winnow down the options to a reasonable number.

At any rate I hope you keep posting because I learn stuff when you do.

Oh and if they guy re-raises pre-flop with AQo put him in your buddy list and try to play with him as often as possible.

Good point. This is something I have come to realize recently (silly really since it's so obvious). However, I think when people say "protect" against the flush draw, what is also implied here is making the draws pay more to get there, so that in the long run, you are making more money.

I'm not saying that 3 betting the flop is right in this situation, but just in general, when someone says that they raised to protect against the flush draw, what this really means is either:
1) Raise to stop someone from staying in for runner-runner flush (this happens a lot, even with a raise, believe me).
2) Raise to make the draw pay as much as possible.

Given point 2) above, I have recently started to do more calling on the flop and raising on the turn to get more bets in, especially in situations where I am pretty sure that I am going to win the hand, as long as the draw doesn't hit . This of course depends on the players involved and their style, and what position you are in. I still do a lot of flop raising as well. I'm not sure if I am completely right in holding off on the raise until the turn in some situations, but it feels right. Any thoughts?

I like the pre-flop raise...i've been preaching a lot lately about hating the limp when first in a pot.
I also would have raised the flop more times than not I believe. MP3 calling is a bonus IMO.
The turn improved our number of outs if we are behind. Call it down from here I think.
River didn't help us, didn't help anyone else you would think. Call it down IMO. 8)

Only other way to play it would be to possibly fold after the raise/3-bet on the flop, but you would have to have a lot of info on your opponents I believe to do that. :?

In an average game, yes... im either limping or more than likley, FOLDING AQos UTG. Why? Because I am HORRIBLY out of position. I HATE playing out of position. In a normal limit he game, I play tight as hell up front and really start opening up my game as I get closer to the button. Thats fine by me. I WANT my UTG raise to get respect, and I WANT to be able to narrow the field if I get a hand like AA or KK. If you're showing down AQos, your UTG raises aren't going to get the respect you need to be able to narrow the field when you really want to limit the number of players that see the flop.

I'm not so much as FAULTING anyone for playing AQos UTG, as I am stating my opinion and how I myself would play it. There are ALOT of different winning styles in poker. My style, is to play ultra-conservative up front, and loose as a goose out back. And I personally think that folding AQos UTG isn't costing me any money. Its too hard to control the action, thin the field, build a pot and a million other things... from early position.

My rule is basically, if I raise with it UTG, and don't feel comfortable with capping a 3-bet... then I shouldn't have even been in the pot to begin with.

soap box..etc to follow..

Note I also said

"Until I'm able to better sort the good from the absolute horrible advice given here, it's best to remain quiet"

So I'll very likely return.

I often do put commentary, but I really think leaving it out is good for objective feed back, too. So adding it in a later post can work

If I post again, I may cut the hand off at each move.
Future street biasis opinions, imo.
How much better is the flop raise, if MP3 folds and BB checks the turn?
Note Mp3 had a gutshot and paired the turn, and called down. The chance to get that "dead money" is worth something.

It just seems like anytime a "scare" card comes we can't make aggressive plays to protect the pot (and by protecting against flushes, I meant to "make them pay more to draw", or get them to fold correctly or not).

My impression from reading and attempting the Quizzes in SSHE is that aggressive play in raised pots is essential. Maybe they don't have enough examples of when you should fold in there. But there are plenty of times raising, while being an underdog, is advocated. And I'm not sure i'm behind here...give it 20-55%. equity..just ball parking.

We're not always behind just because someone raises again, right?
Maybe he's trying to make a play as well..and now feels committed to bet.
I doubt he knew he was ahead/tied...but had to keep betting.

It's the hardest thing for me to read. Am I ahead?

Usually what happens is the "caller" has A6 and I have KQ on a K66 board. And I'm OOP, betting the whole way down...no other worrisome cards...and he calls down with A6 suited, (having made a kinda loose pf call..which doesn't bother me)..but never raising with trips and top kicker (may have saved me $$).

Of course, as I'm betting..I think.."gee who's calling this that can't beat KQ. Oh well, I think I'm supposed to keep betting here because they will chase anything, and I'm likely ahead of the typical player." Then when the cards are exposed, then its "of course"..and I'm the table idiot.

I't hilarious to me the Daniel asked Eric about this hand.
I'm sure pros don't play the way PP donks do.
Also, I acknowledge that Daniel and Eric have probably palyed plenty of sshev against bad players, so they are more than qualified to answer...duh. I'm just curious if Eric put himself in the circumstances of these games...and not those of a typical higher stakes one.

While, I'm ranting....
I couldn't play worth beans before reading Card Player Mag, this forum, SSHE, and posting hands. Now I raise much more on pre-flop and on flops which was agianst natural instinct before, in the "Bingo Poker" days. So when others are critical of this new effort and smack me down, I get confused. JUst being a sissy, perhaps.

thanks, for caring.

DC

why worry about narrowing the field when the typical caller in sshe will have a worse holding than you?

If you raise, it's not like only the good hands call..but now the 67s is playing for 2 bets.

The result of this hand shows how important reads can be. But just because he had AQ, doesn't mean you can call him down. If you had seen him overplay hands before like this, though, then it would be an easy call down. In fact, you would want to raise the flop to get heads up with the overaggressive player.

Regarding preflop play of AQ, raising is definitely correct. I'd rather have AQ on position, but I'll take in UTG all day. For people who don't like rasing these hands out of position, you should start trying it to get comfortable with the situations that arise. You're throwing away money if you open fold this hand.

If your UTG raises are getting respect, then unless someone wakes up with a hand, you will most likely be playing against just the blinds, thereby getting position...

Actuary -- please keep posting -- the more hands/scenarios to discuss, the better.

wow, I can't see folding in this spot either

would a flop raise be a lot better if the pot were larger and there were more than one player to act behind?

I'd imagaine the bigger the pot, the more raising makes sense.
More players means 2 things...more money...and more likely to not win.
If the first out weighs the later enough, raiisng is good, even as an under dog..as I understand.

This pot was marginally big..with potential..when I raised the flop. Essentially, that is important. Perhaps it was not big enough to fight for..but then after the 3-bet..I felt it was big enough to call down. Maybe I stuck myself; however, before the flop 3-bet, I would have put my chances at 40%+. Too optimistic perhaps.

I haven't read SSHE, and I probably should. But I do believe ( I can't check since its packed up.... moving tomorrow ) that theres a paragraph in the SS2 LHE Section by Jennifer on this exact scenario, and if my memory serves me right, she reccomends folding AQos UTG as well.

Im not saying raising with it is + or - EV, and I'm not saying FOLDING it is + or - EV. Im saying that I like to avoid playing marginal hands out of position as much as possible, and preserve a tight image from early position.

I haven't read ss2 yet either, if thats true I'll be surprised -- I'm here to learn -- can anyone verify? Thanks

No, I was wrong. I just un-packed it and found the section I was talking about. It was the part about playing A-Q to an EP raiser, not playign AQ UTG. She only lists hands to play from early position, and doesn't list UTG hands specifically. A-Q IS on her list of hands to play from early position.

Maybe its just me then. I would GLADLY raise AQos from UTG+2 and maybe even UTG+1 after UTG and / or UTG+1 has folded... but I just hate raising with it when I'm first to act. I really like to stick to my rule that if I raised UTG and I'm not comfortable capping a 3-bet, then I shouldn't have been in there in the first place.


Anyways, sorry that my opinion has stirred up so much shit. ROFL

There is a reason that guys like Doyle consider ace queen to be a trouble hand, and it sounds like you are in agreement with them, but maybe not for the right reasons... :?

Thanks guys -- DC carry on, no worries

daniel gives great advice.

also, DC, saying to fold AQ made me puke. I raise ATs in that spot.

brave.

Yes he does.

I’ll go Aseem here for a bit.

Credibility theory is the concept that given a small sample of the most relavent data, one must rely on massive general information to help make a decision. The more vague and limited the specific situation data is, the more the general must be relied on. Like writing up a Group Insurance policy for NY City Firemen…We can look at past expericne at that station…but we would also include much data from other stations and cities.

The amount of weight one allocates to the “General” vs “the Specific” is the decision element of applying Credibility Theory

How does this relate to poker. Well..if you know that the typical small stakes lhe player makes bad descisions, you can discount what they do, whether it’s calling, raising, c/r, whatever. Then you can also try to accumulate data and watch this specific player to see how to tweak your impression from the typical player.

Another example of this, is AQ on a bord of Q72 rainbow is stronger than AQ on a KQ3 suited board…but the likelihood of someone having a K is not any higher now, but lower. (Bayesian). Of course, the reason the AQ is weaker here is in case a K is held by an opponent. When villan bets out, we have another Credibility situation, for are we to put 80% weight into his bet as a indicator he has a K?…and 20% into the pure math that he does not? Even if we had a table of his 3-bettting hands and the percentage likelihood of each holding…we still don’t have the full knowledge of what his flop lead means. We can only assign something like 15% chance he’s betting a Q, etc

To wrap this up…

I think some players actions should be discounted more than others, and one should rely more on the math…as the villan is non-conforming. I may not put enough emphasis on the actions of my opponents as an indicaotr of their holdings because we see so much irrational behavior. Over time, I’ll learn to shape my Credibility curves to more properly compute the real odds that AQ is still worth palying and maybe raising in that situation.

Regardless of its application here, Credibiltiy Theory has a place in poker.

UTG, 10 handed, raising with AT? More times than not that's an easy fold for me. And AQ os is very rarely a raise in that position.

I like pretty much everything that's been said here, but I do have a comment. In my experience playing small stakes on Party, typically when you get raised (without a read), you can be pretty confident that the raiser has you beat. Especially if you have a mediocre holding such as middle pair. Generally small stakes players raise with nothing worse than top pair face card kicker. However, if you have the guy pegged as an aggressive player, it's possible to see him raising with a hand you can beat here.

I also want to say that what I just wrote is by no means a criticism of the way you ended up playing the hand. I don't know whether I would have raised that flop (actually, it's possible I may have folded with a higher pair on the board and my AQ likely to be slaughtered if I'm behind). However, it's a tough decision I probably would've stayed in for at least the turn. The main thing is that I by no means have the discipline to lay this hand down to the flop 3-bet or to not call down in the hopes of getting info on the opponent if nothing else.

I really like the discussion a hand like this can engender.

Sorry I disagree with Daniel here, Raising with AQ adds value here against bad players and the 3-bet really doesn't mean he has a quality hand. At .5/1 and 1/2 people will 3-bet with JQ even to an UTG raise. I woulda 4-bet the flop to cover up AQ and then bet the flop, if he raises that after your preflop cap then he has definitely got the king, call once try hit one of 5 outs or give yourself a straight for 9 outs on the river.

Then it's your choice.

I haven't read SSHE, and I probably should. But I do believe ( I can't check since its packed up.... moving tomorrow ) that theres a paragraph in the SS2 LHE Section by Jennifer on this exact scenario, and if my memory serves me right, she reccomends folding AQos UTG as well.

[/quote]

I have SS2 in front of me right now, Jen says play A-Q UTG and on a passive table even play ATs, I don't see why you would fold those hands here.

there are many hands that Sklansky (in Holdem for Advanced Players)advocates 3-betting, from many positions, depending on the table. For example, if you limp with jack ten suited from early position, and it is raised (and sometimes re-raised) behind you, he advocates putting in the occasional raise yourself with a hand like that. Hands that play well multi-way are good hands to do such a thing. Ace queen does not play well multiway... 8)

I am just telling Daniel that you can't just give credit for AA KK AK when there are so many other hands that the 3-bettor could have....

not that it's gospel or anything but ....

SSHE p313
Do the best top pair hands - ace-ten, king-jack, and better - make more or less money against an increasing number of callers with bad hands?
A: More

Obviously this is only the case pre-flop - you don't want to be playing AQ for top pair against a co-ordinated board with a large field. However, I think SSHE is probably right here. AQ does well against a large field of loose players for top pair/good kicker value. If the flop comes QT2 rainbow you most likely have the best hand and it will remain the best hand often enough to be profitable.

Of course this is mainly in the context of a lot of limpers. With a pre-flop raise and a number of cold callers its value diminishes a lot (at least in my mind).

Heck, even Hilger's "kindling" recommends raising AQ in EP. Oh, and AJs also.