sorry guys, the converter hates me I think...
I've cleaned it up as best I can though.

Early in my session I pick up Pocket Kings in middle
position...what do you do on the flop?


Texas Hold'em $2-$2 NL (real money), #1,135,944,672
Table Izmir, 4 Aug 2005 4:14 AM ET


PRE-FLOP
2 folds, Villain 1 ($193) bets $8, Villain 2 ($178) calls $8, MP calls $8,
Hero ($280) (K K ) calls $8, 2 folds, SB calls $7, BB folds.

FLOP 7 ,8 ,Q (pot $42)
SB checks, V1 bets $26, V2 calls $26, MPfolds, hero....





EDIT---now with chipstack sizes...lol

hero...

realises that he forgot to post stack sizes and reads.

also kicks himself for not reraising preflop

We need stack sizes, but you need a decent sized raise right here, I doubt your stack would be deep enough to make a big enough raise without committing you to the pot so I would probably say all in, without having the sizes of everyones stack. RE RAISE PREFLOP

stack sizes are there now, sorry

early in session no good reads really

you really don't want so many going to the flop with you. Why didn't you reraise the flop?? a significant amount too. Well since you didn't reraise before the flop then you need to make a big bet here on the flop ( shut the flush out get it down heads up ).. i might even move in.

you really don't want so many going to the flop with you. Why didn't you reraise the flop?? a significant amount too. Well since you didn't reraise before the flop then you need to make a big bet here on the flop ( shut the flush out get it down heads up ).. i might even move in.

Without a nice big PF reraise it's pretty hard to figure what I'd do on the flop.

But, IMHO, if you are going to bet this flop, you have to overbet and make the draws pay. I think the only way to realistically accomplish this, and fully employ your fold equity would be to push. Unless they've got a set, they'd be making a mistake to call.

Although this would be much easier if you had the redraw to the King of hearts, I think a push is still probably the appropriate play. I can't see folding an overpair to the board.... especially since the aggression could be coming from A-Q, and the call could be coming from a draw. You are ahead very often here, and should push out the draws.

i didnt see a vote for "go back in time and pre-flop raise cuz you got Pocket Kangs!"

why let Ace-9 suited spike a cheap ace on you?????????

allin preflop when the action gets to you

I push all-in preflop here. The pots not bad here and I dont want to go to a flop with this many people. Besides if you get called (and you probably will), you're ahead of everything except AA.

All-in pre-flop.

:shock:

All in preflop? Are you guys serious?? Is anyone around here afraid to play poker anymore? It goes raised to $8, called twice, and people are suggesting to bet $280??

Raise it big preflop, like 50-70.

there's $31 in the pot before hero even gets his chance to act, that's 15bb's, I'll push in evertime here.

everytime

shut up

You want calls here by AQ, AJ, TT. You're losing money by making such a huge overbet.

i wasn't correcting you. i was agreeing.

No. You want as much money in the pot as possible and as few opponents as possible. Push.

You're losing a lot of money if you make plays like this every time. like they say it's about $ not pots. But I mean, if you like losing money continue with the massive overbets.

alright, raise to $40 have everyone of them call you and tell me what types of flops you'd like to see and tell me what you do on the flop if there's a 3/4 pot sized bet with a pot sized raise with the bet coming from a passive player and the raise coming from a tricky lag

:shock:

I'll make plays like this at small stakes games all the time, in higher stakes games I'll pot it before the flop

Well I would make it about 50 and if they all call theres $200 in the pot where I am ahead just about everytime going to the flop. They aren't correct in calling that much money, so we make money off of their mistakes. You can't play scared or else you'll end up losing A LOT of money. "He could flop a flush draw" "He could flop top pair and get lucky on me" Build a big pot with the best hand, this isn't a tournament.

You're losing a lot of money if you make plays like this every time. like they say it's about $ not pots. But I mean, if you like losing money continue with the massive overbets.

How much money do you think you lose when you get outplayed post-flop by the guy holding JJ when the flop comes Axx? You get called often enough here to make it undebatably the right play. If you think you need to "play poker" you're deluding yourself into thinking you're a better player than you are. Smash has made this argument 9000 times in this forum.

weird, you side stepped the most important party of my arguement with your last response

I didn't side step anything, what was your most important argument? when you get outflopped? if all that action happens in front of you, you can easily fold knowing you're behind. You want people putting money in with worse hands without odds and being scared of getting outflopped will cost you money in the long run.

I said all-in preflop as well.

What you are missing is that the pot is big enough here to be alright if everyone folds. If someone calls (which trust me, will probably happen), you have a huge edge to take a huge pot unless some guy has AA. Plus you absolutly cannot be outplayed by pushing all-in. Trying a regular raise in the back isnt going to do anything to make the other players fold. If they all see the flop, there's probably going to be a lot of action with the size of the pot (assuming you raised pre-flop). Someone's going to try and make play to take it down. At that point, some moron could smoke you with bottom 2 pair. Rather than be in that type of situation, pushing in pre-flop is the easier and better play.

BTW, why does everyone assume if you push allp-in preflop its not playing real poker?

Trying a regular raise in the back isnt going to do anything to make the other players fold

No one's suggested a regular raise. I suggested making it 50-75 more with only about 30 in the pot now. It's still a extremely protective bet and it also allows people to play a big pot against you KK witha wrose hand.

Well if I was in the front with this many players a raise of 50 more would be considered pretty regular to me. What I meant was a raise other than putting someone all-in.

Anyways, with a raise that size, the only person you probably push off is SB. So now you seeing the flop with 3 opponents and a pot around 250. Since the other players will only have around 150-125 left, one of them probably pushes on the flop. They may have only a pair or a draw, but they will have clear visibilty if they have you beat. And if they have you beat and they check it to you, when you make a bet (even half the pot is 125) trying to outplay them, they push all-in and you're going to have to call since you're basically pot committed. What I'm getting at is that with a pot this size (due to your raise) and the stack sizes of the other players, how are you going to outplay people here?

Thanks for all of your posts guys.

I see what you're all saying as far as re-upping preflop
but for some reason, that I can't quite explain, I smelled
a big hand, and thought I would need some help before
pushing my hand.

Here's how the rest played out....


PRE-FLOP
2 folds, Villain 1 bets $8, Villain 2 calls $8, MP calls $8, hero (K K ) calls $8, 2 folds, SB calls $7, BB folds.

FLOP 7 ,8 ,Q (pot $42)
SB checks, V1 bets $26, V2 calls $26, MPfolds, hero folds, SB folds.

TURN ,6 (pot $94)
V1 bets $55, V2 raises to $133, V1 calls $78.

RIVER J (pot $308)
V1 bets $11 and is all-in, V2 calls $11.

SHOWDOWN
V1 shows Q ,Q
V2 shows A ,A
V1 wins $379.


Turns out I wasn't only behind to AA, I was also behind to QQ.

IMO, the most incredible laydown I've ever made.
(what are the odds in a 10-handed game of AA, KK, and QQ all out?)

I see what you're all saying as far as re-upping preflop
but for some reason, that I can't quite explain, I smelled
a big hand, and thought I would need some help before
pushing my hand.

this post is so results orientated it's unreal

you'd call $50 out of position w/ a marginal hand? wow.

What post isn't?

My thoughts on the flop, after not raising it preflop were this.

7 guys to the flop for a 4xbb raise, then V1 bets $26.
If V2 hadn't have called, then I would for sure have pushed
back, however when I saw the second guy's chips go in as well
I just knew I'd either let in an ace (or two) for cheap on the flop,
or was in bad shape anyways, so I let it go...

I'm not saying the way I played KK was good, as the consensus
seems to be re-upping the flop, I just wanted to see what the
forum thought was the move on the flop.

WTF is this, you're behind one hand here, reraise preflop, quit trying to get cute with big hands. this hand sucks.

Quit being d1cks, I only asked what you thought the
play on the flop was...

Do any of you play 2-2NL?

Do you know how often 7 guys go to a raised flop?
it just doesn't happen...

I play 5/10 NL, I also know you should have reraised preflop.

So equate it to 5/10 NL.
7 guys to a flop that is raised 4xbb
Do you not figure there are big hands out there?

Like I say, I was just asking about the move on the flop.
Guys like you always say to ask specific questions, about
particular hands. I did that. Now you're breakin my balls...lol

I reraise preflop here 99.999% of the time because it can:

A. look like a steal raise to buy the pot preflop depending on how much you make it.
B. to define my villain(s) hands so if need be I can get away from the hand.
C. this hand still sucks
D. if it's 3 bet in front of you depending on villain and if the stacks are <200bb, you can get away from this preflop, beings that all of the villains stacks in this hand are >100bb you should have gone broke.
E. because you played this hand like KK=22 you lost the minimum.

Ok I didn't take all the time to read every single reply, but this isn't too hard of a question. Keep in mind slight variances in play must be made for your personal table image, and the overall feel of the table.

Ok, There's 27$ in the pot when it gets to Hero. a bet to 8$, two calls, plus the blinds. Pushing all in is almost always the wrong play unless you are pretty sure someone at the table is crazy enough to call you with AK or a lower pair. That's where table image and whatnot comes into play.

Where was I, 27$ in the pot. You want to make it a bad call for anyone holding an A, and if they hit, oh well, but you want a customer preflop, just not all of them. I'd make it a bad call for anyone by calling the 8 making it 35$ in the pot, and raising 45 - 60 more. You have effectively made any call a poor play unless they're holding AA. This should maximize your profits instead of letting you just walk away with the 27$. Which is really not that much in a 1-2 NL game. I know it's 10bb's, but if you want to argue that with me, you go try to sit down at a 1-2 NL game with 27$ and see how long it lasts. The correct preflop play is a 45 - 60$ reraise. (give or take depending on the feel of the table)

On to your actual question about your postflop situation. There are some issues here. Your position warrants a reraise IMO, but the problem with that is that you will have to be prepared for him to come over the top again and push all in. I don't remember the stack sizes, but I assume he has enough to either cover you or do some serious damage. I would initially say that AQ is the most likely hand. I can't scroll up far enough to re-read the positions, but a 26$ bet with AQ in that position would seem like a weak lead thinking he's best but still wanting to protect himself a bit. 26$ is asking for a caller because he would think AQ is good here. That has the pot at what like 68$ or something? I'd call his raise and go for 100$ more (just over the now 94$ pot). You're commiting to a showdown, scaring the hell out of AQ or a flush draw, and you might get burnt by 2 pair or something. I still think you're a favorite at this point, though it is poker so there's never a guarantee. If he's QQ or something you just gotta bite the bullet and take it (or draw your K :wink: )

hope it worked out for ya

Wallacer

Please point out where I said I would call the raise.

The point is that a lot of people will call (not neccesarily me). It the part you quoted, what I was trying to say is that if a raise came from the back, a raise of 50 isnt unheard of. Would I actually call the raise? With a pocket pair maybe. And if I hit my set, I would check to the 50 raiser, wait for him to bet, and eventually double up. That illustrates the point I was trying to make.