1/2 10 max...about 8 playing

I am in the bb with 10 9 offsuit...

there was one caller then an extremely loose player raised from mp...now he was raising just about every hand...2 other callers and it gets back to me..now at this time the pot is at around 8-9-1 so its a pretty easy call right?
10 9 isnt a big hand but if it hits its a big payoff?

thought so...just to gloat..that hand lead to a 52 dollar pot that went my way...and i ended the 20 minutes the table lasted up 54 bucks...one of the biggest rushes ive been on ever

uh, what?

why would you defend with 10-9 _offsuit_ in the big blind in a multiway pot?

mp's raising standards become completely irrelevant here.

aseem

u wouldnt defend getting 8.5-1 to call?

why wouldnt mp raising standards come into play...if i feel that i may have a better hand then him isnt it a good call? i watched him cap with jack high a few hands earlier so i didnt respect any raise he had and nobody else did either..when i broke him he capped with ace high and no draws

no, i wouldn't defend getting 8.5-to-1.

your hand sucks multiway. if he was raising and it was heads-up, i would definitely defend.

mp's raising standards become irrelevant because he could turn his cards face up and show 7-2 offsuit and you still can't profitably play 10-9 offsuit out of position against three OTHER hands in a big, multiway pot.

you should even be folding weak offsuit hands like K-J and A-10 and Q-J and worse. why would you even consider calling with 10-9 offsuit?

just out of curiousity, have you read SSHE? (not meant to be condescending at all, of course)

aseem

youre right thats irrelavant

the important thing is your 8.5-1 pot odds

Ill call this all day looking for a good flop, anything less than 2 pair on the flop and Ill fold easily

by the way, when you're up against a maniac, you don't loosen up your standards that far. the best you do is loosen up them up on your RERAISES, not your calls.

you want to isolate the maniac and make money off him postflop. you also want to have POSITION on him, that's key. you're not isolating him here, so playing a bad hand at all does no good, and you don't have position on him.

the biggest issue, though, is that your weak offsuit hand with little top pair value SUCKS multiway!

aseem

right, i must be in another universe.

directly from SSHE.

tight games
big blind
against a raise
play: same hands that you would play from late position for one bet, except remove the weak offsut hands AT, KJ-KT, QJ-QT, and JT...

loose games
big blind
against a raise
play: same hands that you would play from late position for one bet, except remove the weak offsuit hands AT, KJ-KT, QJ-QT and JT...

and might i add, T9o is playable in late position for one bet in neither game.

wow, i don't think i have anything more to add to this thread. i think i'm losing my mind when everyone is agreeing that this is an easy preflop call.

aseem

ive read it several times and know the general hand requirements..but as he states..sometimes u gotta vary from it as needed. I didnt feel that with the pot odds what they were against a guy who was clearly raising just to raise that the hand requirements were as necessary.

my only point about the mp is that nobody respected any raise he made...so everybody would be callin with less than top hands...if anybody had a top hand they would 3 bet...none did so i felt alright to call with the odds i had...if i hit the flop im gonna take a huge pot down...if i miss im only down 2...seems almost automatic with a 109

I'm defending getting 9.5-1 (assuming UTG calls) because I'll flop two pair or better 4.8% of the time with good implied odds, and I'll flop a 2-way straight draw over 10% of the time as well. Not to mention that top pair might be good here.

so where exactly are you drawing the line? or are you just going by "feel" and figuring no one has a top hand and you have a 19-to-1 chance of flopping two pair with any two cards?

are you defending with 72o here?

how about 65o?

how about A2o?

how about 32s?

how about 85o?

just wondering what your guidelines are, or if it was just a spur-of-the-moment feeling that your pot odds are good and you can win a big pot if you flop something nice.

aseem

1. you can flop two pair and still lose.
2. you can flop an open-ended straight draw and miss, or hit and still lose.
3. you can flop top pair and still lose.

i think these percentages are grossly inaccurate and irrelevant when it comes to importance of defending.

aseem

sarcasim really isnt needed. U know i wouldnt make a call with any of those and nobody else here would either...the only point im tryin to make is that i felt 109 is a borderline hand...if it was suited there wouldnt even be an issue i dont think...sorry that i dont play exactly by the book...910 would be about the absolute lowest i would go in terms of making a call of a raise.

the 9 is most certainly live with the 10 likely being live also...910 gives me plenty of drawing opportunities. i think its a much tougher decision post flop as to how to continue then on whether to call with the huge odds preflop

I know this hand is os and out of position, but isn't that why you play these hands b/c the pot is multiway? I"m really confused or really tired right now.

i wasn't being sarcastic at all. i really was wondering where you drew the line.

playing 10-9 offsuit there isn't much better than playing 8-7 offsuit, in all honesty. it IS better, of course, but not by mouch.

and don't mention how "live" your cards might be. that's totally inaccurate and false and irrelevant here. you only mention that when you KNOW you're up against big cards. you have NO such information here, and that's just speculation that's intended to make you feel better about what you want to do.

offsuit connectors are really way overrated. they suck pretty bad.

well, i don't know what else to say. i can pretty confidently say that calling with 10-9 offsuit there is -EV, but i have no way to prove that, so i'll let it be.

aseem

no.

offsuit hands suck multiway.

like, really suck.

being out of position sucks with hands that tend to be drawing hands postflop, also. not as bad as being offsuit, but it still sucks. (less information available for you to push equity edges, you can't take free cards, etc.)

to use kdawg's line, this hand just blows everywhich way.

aseem

EDIT: also add that not only do offsuit hands suck multiway, hands with weak top pair value also suck multiway. he has no suitedness, weak top pair value, and connectedness (preflop dimensions). he also has no position and no informational advantage (postflop qualities). this hand really just... sucks.

lol @ aki, you've had some hostility lately

I wouldn't call here personally, probably b/c my play is weak out of the blinds.

New situation:

You're on the button, 5 limpers to you and you have 9Tos, do you fold there?

sorry if i'm seeming hostile.

yes, i still fold 10-9 offsuit on the button after five limpers.

aseem

why do you keep bringing up TP value??

who plays T9 or any other connected/suited hand like T9 for top pair?

are you kidding?

why do you think JTs is playable under the gun, but 54s isn't?

they both have the exact same suitedness and connectedness.

analyze hands preflop in three dimensions:

1. top pair value
2. suitedness
3. connectedness

and that's in the order of importance.

you generally need 2 of the 3, but top pair value is so much more important than the other two that hands like AKo are playable even though they lack #2 and #3.

that's why 82s isn't playable and 87o isn't playable. JTo is marginally playable, though, because it has a marginal amount of top pair value. only in late position unraised though.

top pair value is very important.

if it was T9s, i wouldn't be arguing one bit. in fact, i might make a case for reraising depending on the number of players in the pot and just how loose they are (though being out of position sucks).

with T9o, you have ONLY connectedness. weak top pair value is a turnoff, but the biggest turnoff is no suitedness. suitedness is the most important thing for drawing hands in multiway pots.

aseem

[quote="akishore"]PokerStars 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 6:diamond:, 9:diamond:. CO posts a blind of $2.
1 fold, CO (poster) checks, Button calls, SB completes, BB checks.


ok does suitedness make THAT much of a difference? I don't understand.
And yes you mentioned in your post that this limp might be a little loose.

9-6 suited was quite a loose limp there, i acknowledged it.

i've also stated that as the pot gets more multiway, suitedness becomes the most important factor for speculative (drawing) hands.

and 9-6 suited actually has a little amount of connectedness.

the biggest reason for my limp, though, was that there were four weak, loose players to act behind me. this hand was good enough to exploit postflop edges against bad players.

and to answer your question, yes, suitedness is THAT important in loose multiway pots. MUCH more so than connectedness.

that's also why you can complete in the small blind with any two suited, but not with any two connected.

aseem

So if the 5 limpers in my above scenario were weak/loose would you fold 9Tos with position on them?

If the PFR is solely a preflop maniac, with everyone else being a rock, it's a shit call.

I'd be more inclined to call if i knew the entire table played maniacally - and not just preflop, post flop too. One maniac in an otherwise solid table probably doesn't make it playable. Five maniacs (supposing that you're closing action with your blind defense) probably would.

yeah.

but i would play as low as 6-4 suited.

aseem

WTF???

JT is good for TP but T9 isnt?

The relevance of these numbers is a good question. They're not the be-all-end-all, because your postflop expectation in each situation is key. But they're a good starting point to figure out what that expectation needs to be in order to make calling preflop profitable.

You're 4.8% (or 19-1) to flop 2-pair or better. If this was all you had going for you, you would have to average 5BB profit or more of postflop profit (i.e. average amount your opponents put in when you win minus average amount you put in when you lose) to make calling preflop profitable. I think this is at least close to doable with 5 opponents in a large pot, although I can't say for sure.

But there's also a 3.29% chance that you'll flop a 2-way straight draw and hit it by the river. And the pot will be big enough that you'll always have proper odds to continue to draw at it (barring heavy action). It won't always be good, but I'm guessing it will be good at least 2.5% of the time overall,and that you'll make enough implied odds postflop to compensate for the money you put in postflop and make the straight but lose.

So 2.5% + 4.8% = 7.3%, or 12.7-1. So, for every 1 hand that we get the right board, there'll be 12.7 that we don't. Each time we get the right board, we win the 9.5 SB the pot was initially laying us. So now we only need to make up 3.2 SB (1.6 BB). Even if we only break even overall on two-way straight draws that get there, 2/3 of our "good boards" are two pair or better, we still are profitable if we average more than (3/2)*1.6 BB = 2.4 BB when we flop 2-pair or better. I am pretty sure that we will do better than that on average.

That's before you even include that we'll probably make a profit on average when we flop top pair (maybe our postflop profit will be negative, but I think there's enough money already in the pot that we'll easily make an overall profit in these situations). And also, we'll flop a gutshot draw 14.37% of the time, and we'll often be able to at least take a card off on the flop, and possibly make some money that way.

Wow, this was long, but I think it's correct .....

wow, way to ignore my whole post.

did you notice "marginally playable"?

JTo sucks too, everywhere but the CO or button for just one bet, and even that's close. many people even fold JTo and QTo on the button, that's how close it is.

aseem

Those figures are meaningless. They require too many assumptions and speculation to offer any insight into what you should and should not do.

mrNG, i read your post and have a reply in mind. give me 24 hours, though. i'm really tired and dying to sleep, then i'm working the whole day.

aseem

Ok - I did make a mistake, I forgot to account for the times that you will flop two pair but not win the pot. So, your average postflop profit will have to be higher than what I said. (although I didn't even try to figure in the top pair and gutshot situations, which will bring it back down somewhat.) I'm pretty sure that calling is better than folding.

why is suitedness so much better that connectedness?

Is it because str8s that hit are often beat by higher str8s; wheras, flushes tend to be the only flush?

or...

Sometimes both str8s and flushes come..and flushes win.

you have that backwards

there are more flushes v flushes hands than str8s v str8s hand

but still suitedness is better, you enjoy your flush hitting, with str8 youre scared someone hit it.

w/e, not the point. Against as many players as he was up againt why play this for TP? play it for 2 pair, trips, str8 or better, a pair will beat easily. If I dont pick up 2 pair/trips/str8/str8 draw, its almost an easy fold

Mainly the second one. Suitedness is somewhat better than connectedness, but not tremendously better.

But it's much better to have suited broadway cards than it is to have connected high cards. The reason being that, for example, AK, can only make one straight, whereas JT can make four of them.

Since medium and low cards have little high card strength, you often only want to play them when they'are both suited and connected. You generally need more opponents to call with 96s or 98o than you do to call with 98s.

This hand IMO is an easy fold. 8.5 to 1 or not, unless you flop a straight draw with no flush redraws, you're on thin ice.

I dont think raiser's raising standards are as important as the two cold callers. You've given no read on them, but unless they really suck, they both hold better cards than you. You'll be playing against them from out of position for the rest of the hand. You have the 3rd best hand even if your read is correct, and not a serious drawing hand. You have no visibility at all. If either of them is tricky they could be using loose-raiser to build a pot for their monster while hiding it away. Easy fold in a low-limit game.

I think eddie said it right...You dont play a 9 10 for a tp value...i played it solely to hit a big hand in a big pot...