PRE-FLOP
chassss calls $2 (UTG), Jord4nS bets $4 A 7 (BTN), Mr Barracuda folds(SB), fish10034 calls $2(BB), chassss calls $2.

FLOP [board cards 6H,AH,5C ]

fish10034 checks, chassss bets $2, Jord4nS bets $4, fish10034 folds, chassss calls $2.

TURN [board cards 6H,AH,5C,KH ]

chassss checks, Jord4nS bets $4, chassss calls $4.

RIVER [board cards 6H,AH,5C,KH,9S ]

chassss checks, Jord4nS checks.

Is this an easy river bet? To me it looked like almost every draw got there and I really didn't understand why he would check to me...so I checked behind thinking there was no value to a bet.

This is kinda a check up hand, as this is my first "ring" game in a while. It was 5 max...and this guy was a super fish. he was really really bad. calling with nothing on the flop/turn, even river sometimes. just bizarre.

But I really shouldn't be betting this river here, right? Or should I considering he is a super fish? bleh...i just couldn't bring myself this time when I had him on some sort of draw that got there.

lemme know if this river check is horrible. thx

SHOWDOWN

chassss shows [ 4C,3S ]
Jord4nS shows [ 7D,AD ]
Jord4nS wins $28.

- Jordan

5 handed, Top pair is probably good enough to value bet the river with. So, I think definitely a bet on the river and re-evaluate if check-raised. This board does look nasty for drawing hands, but he just as likely will call you with 5's or 6's if he's a fish, so I think there's value in betting.

yea, that's what i was thinking too...he coulda had a 5 or a 6 as well...and i really wanted to bet it on the river...i normally almost always value bet..i really wasn't sure why I froze up here...

- jordan

pretty easy value bet, imo/

I liked your check. Maybe the $2 $4 fish are insanely bad, but with a board like that and in the situation you described there just doesn't appear to be too much out there he could call you with that you can beat?

I guess if you know the guy to be completely clueless betting would make sense, but wow, that's a stretch IMO.

The flush got there, a straight got there, and you don't have a kicker with your Ace. The only real hand you can hope to get a call from is maybe a 5 or a 6 with a heart draw.

This hand really comes down to reading your opponent obviously, but with all things being equal, fish or not, I would look to check the river also.

Since there was already a limper and four way action it wasn't your typical heads up steal situation. You showed strength by raising a limper, AND you raised the flop showing even more strength. A flush card comes off and you STILL bet it. Man, if the dude calls you with a pair of fives in that spot I'm going to have to start staking my little nephew in those games and get him out of school IMMEDIALTELY! I mean, he is five years old after all... (SW)

plenty of worse hands call; aces with kicker troubles, six' and fives, even underpairs like 88 call.

2/4 is a crazy game.

Danny this is $2/$4. You definately have to value bet it. S0me of these people are so bad that you may have to actually sit down for maybe 10 hands and actually witness it yourself, it's like discovering the lochness monster. People call down with high cards and not even decent ones, like TENS.

Danny:

I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one. It's an easy river value bet. Considering reads, I don't even think it's close.

Jordan said this about the villain in this hand:

This is kinda a check up hand, as this is my first "ring" game in a while. It was 5 max...and this guy was a super fish. he was really really bad. calling with nothing on the flop/turn, even river sometimes. just bizarre.

I think this corresponds very well with Ed Miller's recent hand quiz, His hand is similar in that we have a weak hand on the river, are last to act, are up against a calling station, the board is somewhat scary, and the river card could have potentially hurt us. Applying his theory to this hand, I would argue that the villain probably would have bet or raised earlier with a strong Ace, two pair, or better, and the fact that he doesn't means that we are ahead often enough on the river for it to be a worthwhile bet.

Ed Miller's hand quiz is posted at:

http://www.cgtv.com/games/column/072804/qu...7&XZ2=245798264

In that hand our hero has K 8 and has bet on the flop and turn, and just been called by his lone, Loose Passive opponent.

On the river, the board reads:

9 8 3 2 A

The villain checks to you, and here's what Ed recommends:

Bet! This is a major adjustment you should make when playing against calling stations (people who play with Raul's call with everything, raise with only good hands style). You cannot bluff Raul; he calls when he has any hope to win.

But if he calls with anything, that certainly means that he would call with many hands worse than your pair of eights (king kicker). He could have a pair of eights with a smaller kicker, a trey, a deuce or a pocket pair of fours through sevens. He would call with any of those hands. He could even call with king- or queen-high.

He probably doesn't have a nine, or he would likely have raised on the flop. He probably doesn't have a flush, or he would likely have raised on fourth street. He could have an ace, but he might have bet the river with that. You have no rational reason to think that he has you beaten.

You are likely to have the best hand, and there are many hands he could call with that you beat. Even though you have only third pair, bet for value.

Your nephew could seriously beat these games. They are that soft.

You migh wonder why we post so many questions about these games if the players are so bad. I guess it's because we're trying to maximize our winnings against bad players, and that often involves doing things that seem silly against good players.

Ok, don't where I read this but, "unless you think you're bet will cause a stronger hand to fold, you probably should just check unless you think you'll have the best hand when you are called.

This is where it gets murky in the muddy waters of 2/4. There are definately sharp enough players that could be milking a low end flush or 2 smaller pair or will hang with 9's here to the river, and then go for a check raise. Given that the bet for value is murky, checking is probably correct, but at 2/4 and the dearth of terrible players, it's probably a decent risk. But what's he going to call the bet with? Most likely he will fold his busted draw and you don't gain anything. If he does you may have just cost yourself another bet. I going to lean with DN on this, checking is fine. I don't think you are going to get a stronger hand to fold here or a call by a weaker one.

youve been playing too much 2k/4k

in $2/$4, youll get called by many worse hands

Here are some things I've seen people call with in this situation (granted I play $1/$2 mostly).

Pocket pairs (maybe TTs and lower, although some people don't raise JJ or QQ preflop).

Ax (given the board the x would have to be pretty bad, but maybe villain would play Ac 2c like this)

KQ-KT that pairs on the turn.

A read on the villain would help us know if he's the type player who calls with this type of hand. He would see too many flops, be passive, and call most river bets.

If we don't have a read on him, betting here (in addition to its immediate value) is one way to get a read.

If we check behind and learn he has a busted draw, we learn a little. If we bet behind and he calls with a busted draw or check/raises us with a flush, we learn more.

daniel, this is an easy river bet for value. it's a major adjustment you have to make as you play small stakes like $2/4.

since most players at these stakes are loose/passive, most players call down to showdown with almost every hand. they watch poker on TV, and they think this game is just about bluffing... either you "have it" or you don't. so, they call and call to "keep you honest".

this means that you can't and shouldn't bluff them out--they will blunt your bluffing ability completely! instead, this means that you can bet your marginal hands for value against them on the river.

against loose passive players like this guy was, this a very standard river value bet.


plenty of hands at this level will ignore the texture of the board and will call with _any pair_. occasionally, heads-up, you even get calls with queen-high. many worse hands will call here.


no "SW" here.

aseem

If we check behind and learn he has a busted draw, we learn a little. If we bet behind and he calls with a busted draw or check/raises us with a flush, we learn more.

My point exactly, we learned that it didn't gain anything when he folds, but it cost us when he raises and we could have just checked it here. Again, though given the looseness of 2/4 betting for value here is fine as well.

and its not even close







no sw needed, take a look at the fine print as to what the guy was calling down the OP with, just be sure that you aren't drinking anything as you might need a new comp or keyboard

Yep, this is an easy value bet on the river here. Plenty of hands that we beat are calling here and he's shown no aggression.
Bet it.

I just read the fineprint (Chassss's hand) and I'm just going to assume that this was at good ol' PARTY POKER or one of the skins.

I value bet it too if I had Your read that he was THAT bad. All underpairs are calling. I'd think 4-4 with one heart would be calling.

Hmm come to think of it, how the hand plaed out I'd value bet it without a read.

I'd value bet this against a bad player/calling station or just a complete maniac. Id check it against a decent player in the higher games. I think it's kind of close though, because this game is 5 handed and top pair is fairly strong and I think worst hands do call you. You can't exactly discount middle pairs either like 77 or 88 that they might hold, so I see value in betting. Getting check-raised would really suck though and I'd have to re-evaluate if this happened.

well, aside from the horrid preflop open-limp with 4-3 offsuit five-handed, his postflop play wasn't really bad? he just had an open-ended straight draw that missed. he semi-bluffed on the flop (albeit he had no heart) and just called the raise and the turn bet and checked the river.

aseem

Well, I'm assuming I got so many replies cuz of daniel posting. heh.

either way, yea, I was posting as a check up cuz I have only really been playing limit HU, so when I checked here (cuz I'd almost always bet it HU) I felt like I may have missed a bet against said opponent. Just cuz he was so bad.

Granted, I don't think he woulda called down with what he had, but he would have very easily with a 5 or 6, so yea.

This was betonbet, a pokerroom skin.

Oh, and I took about $40 or so off this guy thru the session. Was just god awful. One had I flopped trips with 67, A66, he bet, i raised, call, turn was a blank, he bet, i raised, call, river was an 8, he bet, i riased call..he showed 87. and no, the turn didn't give him any draw. just crazy.

- Jordan

Hmm what could a decent opponent have that could have us beat?

i rest my case.

there should be no more debate about this. it's not even close.

easy river value bet.

aseem

Yea, I do think I missed a bet against this guy...but against a more solid player, better player...do you think this river still warrants a bet?

- Jordan

i need to update my perscription, I thought he had 49o

i'm not really debating... I just like seeing my name as the last person to post in a thread....


hows everyone doing today?

Solid = Yes. But I can't see what a solid opponent would have there that would beat us.

The two kinds of opponents I'd be worried about are the tight-passive ones who would have A-5 or something here (not a solid opponent), You know, the kind of opponent who misses a ton of bets (in this case, he'd be threatened at the 3 heart board)... the other kind of opponent would be the one who would check a better hand on the river hoping to check raise (again, not too solid).

The above situations seem slight, given that it's 5 handed, so 2 aces being dealt to 2 different opponents doesn't happen often.

yea i agree...

Well, maybe I am wrong about this one if the games are truly as soft as you all claim them to be. Since it has been ages since I've played in games with blind people before it just seems like a nutty bet.

I should qualify it I guess, by saying that if you try a value bet like that against Ray D., David O., Jennifer, Joe C, or any knowledgeable limit hold'em player it isn't such a good bet.

So again, I'll concede that I'm probably wrong about this one, but man it just doesn't seem like poker to me...

That's what makes it so much fun and profitable for us!

I for one would be positively intrigued if you made up a throwaway Partypoker screen name, put 300 dollars on it, got Pokertracker, and posted the stats on 10,000 hands of .50/1 limit.

But of course I respect your time... and your skill as a player. No matter how not-low-limit your advice is... I'll always respect your opinion and you don't need to prove yourself to me.

But I do think it could conceivably help your game when you're playing rich donkeys who know nothing about poker in some tournament sometime.

No, I agree with you. His call on the turn when the flush card hit basically rules out a flush, and leaves a straight draw / naked heart draw or an ace. Since on the end, 2 of the 3 above ( the straight draw and the ace ) has us beat, I like the check. If he was drawing and missed, you aren't getting a call from him, and It would be super lose for him to call on teh end with a hand like 7x7h or Kx-10h.

I'd personally check that river all day long.

EDIT: Just noticed he had the ass end straight draw. The one that DIDN'T get there on teh end

against a thinking player there's no way in hell that I'm betting this because a CR bluff on that river is just way too likely and then we would have no choice but to fold, but this is party 2/4, so the donktard factor at this level is extremely high. I'm not betting this river at 15/30 or 10/20, and that's where I start to check the river

...hehe, if only i posted more hands from my 5 max games...you'd be like...what? why? oh it hurts.

sometimes it does (hurt)...butmost of the time people are just bleeding away chips.

- Jordan

Value bet this without a doubt. Until players do something to astound me, i label them donks at this level pretty much no matter what. I also would not fold to a check raise on the river either, too many players will c/r with 1010, JJ, or a weak K. You completely have to adjust your styles to the competition, and in this spot you will not only be called by worse hands but they will also raise you.

See, thats where I think a problem lies. Instead of giving the player credit until he proves otherwise, you give him NO credit, until he shows you he can play.

I'd much rather give them credit and lose a small pot, then not and lose a big one. Untill a player shows me he CAN'T play, I'll automatically watch him and assume he CAN until he shows me otherwise.

Just depends on your philosophy i guess. The problem with giving everyone credit is that the vast majority of low limit internet players are terrible.

Back when i did give more players credit i lost out on more bets than i do now by assuming the opposite. Just to be clear, the player doesn't have to pull a move on me for me to give credit, so often it does not cost me anything either way. The majority of the hands that you base your opinions on are hands that you were not even in.

I fail to see any value in a bet there, with those cards showing. What do you think this guy will call you with that you have beat at that point? A bet will serve one of two things IMO - you will lose one extra bet (maybe even two if he checl-raised you and you called) or he will fold (indicating that you were winning anyhow so you didnt need to bet on the river possibly risking the extra bet or two). 8)