Just wondering if any of you play on Pokerroom.com and if there is any history of people thinking its not legitimate...here are my reasons for wondering

About a week ago I saw 3 10's flop, as I was calling my friends over to see it, the 4th 10 came on the turn. Fluke, I guess, but all 4 10's before the river? thats crazy.... (.000369% chance of happening, 1 in every 271,000 hands)

5 hands later...5 hands!! 3 Aces flopped (.018% chance of happening, 1 in every 5,555 hands). I mean...what are the odds? this was only 5 hands after the 4 10's came up in a row...


A few days later (last night), I got dealth pocket-rockets TWICE in a row (.00205% chance of happening, 1 in every 48,780 set of two hands). As I was complaining about this to the others at my table (well, wondering, can't really complain about pocket rockets) I saw three 10's flop again (.018% chance of happening, 1 in every 5,555 hands).

I know there is a chance that this is all just a freak coincidence, but I also know the odds of me seeing all of that in a week (probably play 7 or 8 hours a week) are EXTREMELY low...I mean freakishly low somwhere around ~.0000001%

Just looking for some info.

www.cardplayer.com/poker_magazine/archives/showarticle.php?a_id=14467&m_id=65553

Read that, good article. The fact is longshot odds happen. Did I moan in the Negreanu open last night when I had pocket 7s and 3 aces came on the board and chao had the 4th ace in his hand? I was like whats the odds he has the 4th ace, lets raise it up! DOH! :evil:

Thanks for the article and I'll read it, but I should clarify, on most of these hands I had already folded (pre flop), so I'm not upset and I didn't really lose any money on the hands (besides losing one on my AA hands). I mean I know weird things happen...I guess I wish I could just see a database that kept track of hands, flops, community, etc. for the poker services. Maybe it should be required?

-i've had back to back AA before. in fact i busted the same guy two times. (royal vegas poker)

-i got quads 4 times in one session... my friend got 2, and i saw 3 more that same night
(paradise poker)

-i have multiple screenshots of boards like 2222x and AAAAx where any A and any K respectively are going nuts.
(paradise poker)

-ive seen straight flush over straight flush... both 2 card. (poker room)

sometimes it just happens.

I know what you mean. Last night I saw a hand where the turn made...

2 6 Q 4

The odds of that happening... almost 6.5 million to one! :roll:

Well, possibly it should be required, but who is going to enforce it? These cardrooms are based in far flung places in the world (Pokerroom, incidentally, is in Sweden, I do believe), so American laws don't apply to them. Until poker on the internet is legalized in the US, they can't/won't regulate it like that. So it's kind of a moot point, but I'd like to see one too. I firmly believe that Pokerroom, and all other sites, are legitimate, and do not rig their games, personally.

Interestingly, I've been running a home experiment in my down time (not much). I've been dealing a heads up hand, assuming all in in the dark, and dealing out the community. Last night, in 50 hands, the lower starting hand rivered a winning card 18 times. Not flopped it, not turned it, but rivered it, 18 times. The bigger starter hit a comeback card on the river to win 6 times. So 24 river wins out of 50 hands. I dealt a 10 handed spread a couple nights ago and had 88, JJ, KK, and AQs. (KK held up, btw ) So this has gone a long way to helping me realize those strange deals happen, no matter what. Yes, in my experiment, 3 of a card have come up on the flop (can't say 4 on a board, but as you said, very statistically unlikely, but it does happen). Sure, the odds are very long. But they were lnog for Varkonyi, Moneymaker, and Raymer to win, too.

Dang, this has been full of wind, hasn't it? Sorry for the long post.

Hey Megacake . . . I like Pokerroom. I play there everyday and love the site. It has good graphics and seems to look a lot better than others I have tried. I haven't ever felt weird about playing there and have done pretty well on that site. Hope this helps.

I got two straight-flushes within about 15 minutes and I LOST with one of them.

This happened in a Gardena card room about 20 years ago. We were playing draw poker too, so it wasn't like we both hit each end of the flop or something. What are the odds of someone getting two straight flushes within 15 minutes and then the odds of two people getting a straight-flush in the same hand of draw poker?

Pretty friggin' long.

Do I think B & M cardrooms are rigged?

No.

Thanks for the replys everyone,

And your experiment sounds really interesting Kendren. Even if Internet Poker was legalized in the US the servers would be run in whatever country had the leanest laws I'm sure.

Yeah, I'm not a guy who ever complains about a bad beat, and I will apologize to others when I get one (like my Q6s beating a AA in an all-in last night). And I have come to fully respect the river, but your experiment Kenren is very interesting, if river beats are indeed that high, it might actually start to change my style of play a bit (do a little bit more bullying at the flop).

Interesting yes, but think hard about changing your style of play because of one guys 50 hand experiment, hehe

It is interesting, or at least I think so. Haven't really gotten deeply into it, I started it when I took 4 bad beats (or bad plays by me, still not sure ) in a row to bust out of a tourney, just grabbed a deck and started dealing. Haven't kept great records before last week, now I have about 150 heads up hands logged. All the stats are at home, tho. But I've noticed, heads up, at least, catching up is not nearly as uncommon as you might think. And it's exactly the level of work I like... none Just grab a deck and deal.. it's therapeutic, for me

Oh, God, I missed that line... don't take my word for it, man, do your own, or ignore me :oops: 50 hands ain't nothing, 150 ain't either... I just find it interesting. After 1000 hands, I'll post the results, and then we can talk about changing styles 8) And remember, that was just heads up

Yeah of course it's important to keep in mind that it's heads up. I tried writing a Java poker hand simulator this summer (computer engineer here) but got swamped in syntax errors. Anybody here know of a good playing deck class or hold 'em class thats out there somewhere? hehe, i know the odds are low but just hoping

Dang, that's going farther than I know how with the simulator :shock: Don't know of any classes off the top of my head, except maybe Josh Arieh's in Atlanta.

I play there daily and like it as well. I have had my share of bad beats but I have had them in Casino's, home games, and pokerrroom.com. As long as I continue to make money each week, I will continue to play there.

there might be...
but as a compsci major, im guessing that you probly overcomplicated the problem. i wrote a card simulator a few years ago, and if i can find it ill let ya know.... if memory serves me right, i wrote it in VB for the graphical stuff, so it isnt a class.... but it works.

Just thought you guys might wanna check out this link. It has some data that pokerroom has collected in hopes of showing their deals are random. I play a lot of online poker and you're gonna see weird stuff happen, especially since you could be playing up to 120 hands/ hr.

http://www.pokerroom.com/main/page/games/cardStats

lmao... not a programmer, are we? or is it that i cant detect sarcasm?? i shoulda kept my mouth shut :?

thanks a lot for the site robification! this was exactly what i was looking for.

I be an uderprogrammer... eg: I don't even know how the gerbils in the computer get it to run. But I enjoy the results, except when they want food and crap all over the place. :wink:

Ironically, I had planned on coming home from work this morning and posting a question about Pokerroom. Thanks to whomever helped enable my laziness (now I dont have to start a whole new thread).

I've dumbed around a bit with pokerroom. Quite frankly, I hate the interface, though I've seen worse. I generally play at UB now, but I was thinking of moving part of my bankroll over there. I work overnights and I generally dont have time to play during the week, only weekends. I want to play 7 days a week! I work for a huge internet company; one that regulates downloads, meaning I cant download poker software. Pokerroom offers it web based; which means I could spend my 11 hour work night playing poker. I'll tell ya, its truly great to manage your own shift. Your in charge; which means the only responsibility you have is to ensure your employees dont die (and the only reason you even need to do that is so you dont have to fill out the paperwork afterwards. I'm not entirely sure if I'm joking, sadly).

Anyway, my apologies for being horribly wordy. My questions are:

1. Has anyone ever had problems with cashing out there/getting your money?

2. How reliable is the site in regards to downtime and all such things?

3. Any problems with the web based interface? I havent gotten to fool with it much

Thanks in advance for the help!

Seems cool, except for the whole paperwork thing... if they're working 11 hour shifts, who's gonna miss them if they disappear anyways? :wink:



1. None whatsoever, I've cashed out twice by mailed check even, gotten it with no issues 5-7 business days later, cashed no problem. Not heard any real complaints from anybody about it.

2. Iffy. Midafternoons are bad, late evenings/late nights EST are pretty good, that's when I play daily, 10:00 PM and later. If you're in a tourney and it freezes, they'll get refunds relatively quickly, like 2-3 days.

3. Not really, sometimes you have ghosting problems (cards that don't fade after a hand), but that might be more a connection thing. I can't download either, so all I've ever played is the web interface, and it's nice, but I miss the stats.

Hope that helps some, PR is the only place I play, and I love the place.

I was playing in a live tournament, 2 decks per table, and the guy next to me had rockets on 4 out of 6 hands, with 3 in a row. That same table I had quads twice within about an hour. One PP, and flopped, another A5 with a 5 on the flop, turn, and river. So it does happen. I think, as people have said, you see so many more hands on line than live that it "seems" like it happens a lot. Just my opinion.

What's your user name at Pokerroom . . . maybe I'll run into you!!

I play at pokerroom and ub all the time.

pokerroom - brando_1801 - usually .50 - 1 10 table and multi's

ub - brando_18 - .50 - 1 and .50-1 kill games

I love pokerroom's software. I use firepay and have never had a problem.

What's some of your names on pokerroom?

jayistheman.... i havent logged many hands there since august, but i might make a return shortly.... did they incorporate a playre color coding feature, or did i fabricate that in my mind?

Kendren at pokerroom, usually find me in the $5-1 multis at 10:15 PM or 10:45... when the wife goes to bed and I get my free time

playing on fulltilt last night, 2 odd things happened

1) within 2 hours, i saw 4 flops of the same card, twice 3 10's, 3 8's, and 3 7's.

2) in a multitable tourney about an hour into it, a semishortstack raised it 3xbb utg, i had AQ and decided to put him allin since i was 2nd in chips in the tourney, and he called instantaneously...with 9To. flop 78J.

I thought for about five seconds that he had to have some inside knowledge into that flop, then i remembered...people are idiots. the guy busted out soon after when he shoved his good sized stack with 45 and got called by AK.

the sites are legit, statistical improbabilities happen like that...they somewhat have to to make up for the 10,000 hand weeks where you don't ever see 3 of hte same card flop.

Let me know when you see 3 suited aces flop...then i'll let you know if the site is rigged

I play at Pokerroom all the time and find it to be totally legit. Poker is poker, and there are lots of unlikely things that happen. They happen in casinos too, they just happen more online b/c you play 4 times as many hands.

I was in Vegas over the weekend and had two hands which, if they happened online, somebody involved would say "this site is rigged."

Hand 1.) I have 9 9 in the cut-off seat. Player in 1st position raises 6x BB ($12) I move in for $85 (I put him on AQ and thought I could muscle him out), SB immediately moves in over the top, 1st positon moves in over the top of him. SB has A A 1st position has K K . The flop was all rags and AA holds up.

Hand 2.) This hand occured in a MTT tournament at the Sahara. Blinds at $500 and $1000. Player in 1st position moves in for $4500, I look down to see K K so I move in for $5500. Player in 1st position turns over A A . Again the aces hold up.

tiger8191

I am all over, ring, multi, single, whatever I feel like playing.

On the world poker tour, it was heads up between Alan Cunningham and a young Russian guy, for the life of me I can't remember his name, but he's a good player.....anyhow, Cunningham got kings and raised it up, and the Russian called with AX....the flop was 772....Cunningham bet, Russian called....turn was a 7....Cunningham bet I believe, and russian called again....the river was another 7, for a board of 77772....the Russian now had the best hand with 4 7's ace kicker and bet a good amount which Cunningham called clearly out of tilt and lost the hand.

What are the odds of 7777 coming on a board when someone has kings? Apparently pretty good, seeing as it happened on TV...you don't just see crazy things happen on websites, you just see so many more hands that its more likely to be seen.

Im playing on Poker Mountain right now. I was dealt pocket aces twice in three hands then just a few hands later was dealt Q9 of hearts twice in a row. Stuff happens.

I was way to swingy on Poker Room. Don't know if it was the site or my bad play... probably the later. I have found better success at other sites and better MTTs.

Hate to be the devil's advocate, but compared to B&M's online gaming is completely illegitamate. Not only do I say this based upon witnessing hands similiar to your examples, but every site that runs a television commercial specifically says "not a gambling site". Gambling is in reference to the federal govt's definition, which takes me to my 2nd point. Online gaming is not regulated by any federally appointed commision like B&M's are. B&M's have specific rules to follow, whereas online sites do not have to abide by the regulations. That's not the only reason only gaming does not want to be regulated, but it's a major one.
Take bad beats for example. What do we all do when we recieve a bad beat? We seek assurance from those around us. "Hey man, on POKERROOM.COM i had aces cracked by dueces 2x in an hour". By telling that story, you just performed the cheapest and most effective for of advertising, WORD OF MOUTH. Costs the sites nothing, but draws in business. Obviously they lose customers because of bad beats, but if they draw in more than they lose, than it's " a smart business decision". Hope this helps solve the problem. If you want to see whackier things happen, try pokerstars, see 4.5 to 1 (PP vs. smaller PP) constantly outdrawn on the river where odds are then 20 to 1(i believe).

Damn, I knew it. At Tony's home game the other night, I went allin with a bluff, A7 with 468 on the board. I got called by 99. Spiked an ace on the turn, he hit 9 on the river. Damn, I knew he rigged that deck so I would give out some free publicity.

:roll:

ok so at party poker they are at 1,416,000,000 hand i remember when they hit the 1 billion mark, about three months ago. that makes 416 million hands in 3 months that makes the hand count about 460 thousand hands a day now talk about odds of a series of events happening.

but thats my opinion i could be wrong :-)

I know that u see 4 times the amt of hands, but what is the chance of getting 4 of a kind twice in a row and on top of that 5 times in3 days. This happenes to me on pokerroom.com and that doubled the amount of 4 of a kinds I'd ever had. I thought that was weird. I probably played about 10 hours all together in that 4 of a kind streak. Has anyone ever seen that before? Just curious.

I'm a pokerroom regular as well. Been there about 2 years. Overall, it is my favorite site. Part of the reason for that is I win there more than any other, so keep that in mind.

I personally like the interface. (I use the download version). Its not the "best" out there, but it works for me.

I have never had a problem cashing out. I don't even feel superstitious about the "cashout curse". One time I had a cashout from pokerroom that was declined by neteller. I called pokerroom support and it was fixed in less than two hours. So maybe I had a cashout delay, but not a problem.

Downtime: Not bad. A few instances, but that happens to all of em.
I had some issues with support - SNG tables disconnecting and being unable to get back in. - this has happened about 5 times in two years.
I've never gotten a reply from email support. But phone support is good. I think it is sweden. (I find myself wanting to make up problems to listen to one of those ladies talk to me in that accent).

Randomization: I believed the rigged conspiracy when I first started. But now I just take those bad beats or "oddball" hands as part of poker, regardless of where its played. I believe sheer volume of hands makes it to where its just seen more. (I have a few more thoughts of my own about this, but will spare you, as none of them involve the game being "rigged").

They have absolutely no reason to rig it. They generate profit by making sure it isn't rigged. The wins aren't going to pokerroom anyway - they're going to the idiot that called that terrible hand to the river. (sorry, couldn't resist).

When I'm making a decision to call some weird hand, I treat it the same as I would a live games. To me its still the same odds.

My pokerroom name is the same as here. Same at every other site as well. Yep, I'm the creative type.