I am confused by these statements in Lee Jones book WINNING LLHE.

" An open end straight draw is about 4.9-1 on either the turn or the river. If you flop an open ended straight draw, you are a 2.2-1 dog to make it by the river."

So if I flop the open ended straight draw and the pot odds are greater than 2.2-1 I should call all the way down? I usually always call if pot odds are 5-1 or greater. Am I doing this wrong? What is the point?

He makes a similar statement about flush draws, " Once you have flopped 4 to a flush, you're a 1.9-1 dog to make it by the river. So if I have 4 to the nut flush I should call all the way down if pot odds are 1.9-1 or better?

I am sure there is an easy explanation and I am missing something that will be obvious to alot of you.

The if you have an OESD or a four flush on the flop, then your odds of completing by the river are the odds that at least one of your outs will come on either the turn or the river.

This happens about a third of the time.

But the odds that the next card will complete your flush or straight are about the same if you have the draw on the flop or the turn. In both cases you have 9 outs (or 8 for a straight draw) and there are 47 or 46 unseen cards, so your odds of hitting on the next card are about 4 to 1.

The 4.9-1 number is your odds for any ONE street (the turn OR the river). The other (better) odds are the COMBINED odds of making your hand if you call the turn AND the river. Therefore, you need to factor in how much it will cost you to call bets to see BOTH the turn and river cards if you're thinking about the better odds number.

Hope this helps. Oh yeah ... one more thing: Buy SSHE.

Just to follow-up on what Tim said. You should make your decisions on whether or not you have pot odds to call based on each card to come, rather than the odds through the river.

The if you have an OESD or a four flush on the flop, then your odds of completing by the river are the odds that at least one of your outs will come on either the turn or the river.

This happens about a third of the time.

Understood, but then it is correct to call after the flop if pot odds are 2.1-1 or better as long as you see both cards?

generally, on the flop, you want to peel with either one of those draws.

don't worry about exact math, there will almost never be a situation on the flop where you'll have to think about it (in limit hold 'em).

in no limit is where this differentiation becomes important.

use pot odds of more than 2-to-1 if the flop bet puts you all-in or you're very confident you'll get a free card on the turn.

use pot odds of more than 4-to-1 if the flop bet will only give you one card and you'll have to pay on the turn again.

with worse draws in limit hold 'em, usually use the odds for only one street to come (e.g. 11-to-1 for a gutshot instead of 5-to-1). it is often correct a lot of times to peel one card off the flop with a weak draw then let it go on the turn when you miss.

aseem

That makes alot of sense to me, Thank you.

Most pots in low limit holdem will be big enough to justify calling a bet on the flop with a flush draw. If there are just two limpers and the blinds, then the pot will be 4 small bets before any flop action happens. So if someone bets, you should call.

But to answer your question, to see both cards you will have to pay a small bet on the flop to see the turn and a large bet on the turn to see the river, so your full odds could be less than 2.1 to 1. But I'm having trouble thinking of examples where the pot is so small and you won't be able to make up enough bets when you hit your flush to justify folding it on the flop to a single bet.

If you are interested in learning more theory, you should get Small Stakes Hold'em by Miller, Sklansky and Malmuth. It explains a lot of stuff that Lee Jones leaves out.

it is often correct a lot of times to peel one card off the flop with a weak draw then let it go on the turn when you miss.


Not that often really..

stop reading lee jones!!!

you _must_ buy small stakes hold 'em by ed miller.

aseem

in decent-sized pots, isn't it?

(assuming loose games where the flop is often around 8 SB - 10 SB.)

aseem

with implied odds I would think so, especially if its a gutshot to a nut straight ect.

No one is implying you raise with the gutshot. The discussion is about 2.2-1 draws until the river or 4.9-1 draws for a particular street.

huh?

aseem