Couldn't find a good 3/6 game for about 2 hours - figured I'd give 5/10 a shot after having a +$200 day at 3/6. This is 1 of 2 hands I have a question on.

Empire Poker 5/10 Limit Hold'em (10 handed)
Hero is BB with [5s] [8c]
5 folds, MP3 calls, 3 folds, Hero checks

Flop (2.5 SB): Qd 4d 8s
Hero bets, MP3 calls


Turn (2.25 BB): 4h
Hero bets, MP3 calls

River (4.25 BB): 3c
Hero bets, MP3 calls

Not much of a read on MP3. He hadn't shown down any hands and had not made it to the river with a hand yet. Suffice to say, he was kinda tight.

Thoughts on this hand? Should I be betting at it? Are these semi-bluffs or value bets? Should I bet the river or check/call?

With him calling you on the river I gotta sense you're beat.

Maybe even the turn if you think he's tight, but he could have a draw.

I havn't played full ring for a while but I think I would still bet this turn and check the river.

Geez, sometimes I hate posting how I'd play a hand, cuz I really don't truly know unless I'm there playing and have a read, but if I really think he's tight I may check/fold the river.

You can't beat much here. Sure you know this.

- Jordan

Tough to say, but I think I bet the flop and turn, and then check/call the river, and hope he checks behind too. Either you're beat by the queen or the bad kicker, or ahead if he's calling with a lower PP.

I've been seeing a lot of calldowns with A high at this table. Does this change your response?

And why should I be check/calling here?

Well... lemme rethink a bit and remember this is a 5/10 game... which I have no experience playing, but I would assume it's much more aggressive. In that case, maybe your 8's are good here. The reason I would say check/call is because I notice plenty of people bluff at any sign of weakness like that, and I usually call and catch them on it. But keeping in mind that it's 5/10, then I would expect a raise somewhere from a Q or strong 8. So maybe you played it alright. I'd say it's close. You had a better read than me.

Custom. Are people limping A high and calling down? Or raising PF with Ace high and then calling down.

that can change some things...

- Jordan

No, I'm not. I'm showing down pretty much all good hands.

Side note - I'm off to bed. Lost about 18BB's in the session, but I played well, so I'm not sure how I feel. I'll check (and possibly bump) these threads in the morning.

you misread his question.

aseem

usually, the river is a standard check/call. not much calls you that you can beat, and not much folds that you can't beat.

the one exception is if the players are _consistently_ calling down with specifically no pair (ace high, king-high) or if you think 7-7 or 6-6 or 5-5 would have played the hand the same way.

aseem

Lol, yes I did.

It was dependant on the person. I saw AK limped and then called down as ace high. I also saw A-8 suited raised preflop and then called down as ace high.

Is this normal in a 5/10 game? Is this how you're supposed to play? I don't think it is, but there were so many people doing it, I have to ask.

I think the check call is no good.

I bet the river.

My speculation:
I bet he had a better 8.

Nope.

What are your reasons for betting the river?

I bet the river because checking out of position is like crying "he's calling me down, mom, make him stop!!!!" Betting gives you two chances for winning, him folded or you having the best hand. I think if you check here you'll be paying for the bet anyhow because it'll look so weak. If he wakes up on the river, I might consider folding with a read on him. If you check here he gets to check all the hands that you beat and if you call his re-raise you pay off all the hands that have you beat.

The last sentence is a concept I've seen wrto post a bit about. Am I applying it incorrectly?

i like the river bet... I would hope that nobody in thier right mind is heads up playing the queen that passive...my first read would be the nut flush draw and he just hoped u had nothing with that river bet. I think based off of how the villian played the hand the river bet was a good one...unless it comes down to kicker and then its a split pot hopefully unless ur really unlucky

guys, the river is a really standard check/call against most opponents!

"betting gives you two chances to win"
"he checks behind the hands i beat"

that's NOT the right way to think about this.

with marginal hands on the river, check/calling is best usually because your opponent usually folds hands you have beat (this game _might_ be an exception according to custom, since people will call down with ace high) and the only times he calls he usually has you beat!

this is a basic concept.

read this article by chris ferguson:
http://www.chrisferguson.com/cgi-bin/artic...supdate.cgi?s=2

aseem

Fwiw, which isn't much, he had KhQh.

also add (how could i forget this, this is a big part):

checking gives EVERY worse hand that would usually fold to your river bet a chance to bluff.

aseem

I see your point Aseem (and the others who made this point). Check/calling would have been best. For some reason I was pretty sure I had the best hand, I magically put him on A high, and figured betting would be best. Heat of the moment, I guess. :?

i win one!

usually, this river is a standard bet/fold. But because this guy seems tight and we have a weak kicker, i think we should check/call.

if our kicker was better would should value bet all day.

like i said, bet/folding becomes better than check/calling the moment that this phrase no longer holds true:

"worse hands will fold if you bet"

if you know you'll get calls from plenty of worse hands, value bet and fold to a raise.

usually, though, this is a standard check/call, and that's all i was arguing.

aseem

I think bet the flop and check the turn. If he checks behind you bet the river.

Its usually uncommon to see someone go all the way to the river without atleast a pair. His call on the flop makes things a little harder to figure out. He could be on a flush draw or have a weak Q. Since he called in middle position its very likely he could have a Q. I'd respect his play and check the turn and see what he does. If he checks I'd bet the river because if he has a Q he likely would bet it and if he checks hes likely on a flush draw but knows hes behind.