Table is tight-agressive. 25-30 preflop. (I'm at it to clear a re-load bonus)

10 handed 3-6

Hero has Ks Kc in MP.

A bunch of tighties fold... Hero raises, Button calls.

Flop: [7h][7s][5d]

Hero bets, Button calls.

Turn: [Ah]

Hero checks

River: [Qd]

Hero checks


I can put him on a range of hands: A-K, A-A, K-K (I know), Q-Q, J-J, 10-10, could even be a smaller pair to get it heads up...

Checking the turn is bad...bet out and consider your read if he does raise.

If he's a tricky or somewhat loose player like you seemed to indicate, your kings might still have showdown value

Bet the turn and fold to a raise?

Oh and he's not loose, he's tight-agg. But he could be 3-betting preflop with a lower PP like 8-8 or something thinking I have A-K or A-Q.

That's why I said consider your read

You might fold to a raise some of the time, and call down some of the time
Either way is better then just check/calling down

I usually bet the turn here too, but I'm starting to wonder whether or not if it's the right move against an aggressive opponent.

An TAG may call with a lower PP, but most of what they call with will have us beat. Also, this is a way ahead/way behind situation. Checking give a weaker hand a chance to make something, and it could also induce a bluff.

Bet/fold is a good option if your opponent is straightforward. If you don't know how to handle a raise, check/calling is the best option.

You need a read to be able to play this situation profitably, but how do you play it with no reads?

Check/calling this turn is horrible.

I think I bet/fold it. If he's raising here with QQ or JJ after you cap, good for him, he's going to make you rich later.

Screech, I thought about WA-WB. I thought too if I bet turn and he had a smaller PP, he'd fold. But I'd win the pot right there, and if he raises, I fold, saving 1 BB. I wouldn't spend 3 BB to showdown.

Screech Smash and Vade... next time I bet - fold to a turn raise.

However what happens if he just calls... then on the river? Check-call right? But wouldn't that cost the same amount (2 BB) as if I had check called from the turn? I mean, if he called the turn with an ace and I check river, he's betting all the time there.

Ok let me be the first one to answer meself. Thats how come I should bet - fold the turn. Win the pot, and hope to save 1 BB if he raises. Don't think about him folding a smaller PP if I bet the turn and not getting paid off, I'll win the pot if he folds and I'll save 1 BB if he raises. If he just calls, then it will be the same as if I had just check-called turn and river, spending the same amount of 2 BB.

Ok, thanks me.

now, do youbet/ fold the river?
especially since it was a Q....

I'm thinking check/call the river..you want to showdown this hand...
If I give bad advice, Smash will invite me to play Party 5/10..Thats Party..5/10 Holdem...on Party....So I hope this is okee dokee.

here's a question.

if you bet the turn and get raised, are you folding or calling down?

the way you answer that is key in how to play the turn, i think.

aseem

why exactly?

aseem

If I get raised on the turn, I'm folding.

i'm not saying you're necessarily wrong, but i don't think it should be so automatic.

you'd be getting 8-to-1, and this is clearly a big pot heads-up.

aseem

Against an unkown im bet/folding this turn everytime.

It's not worth 2 more BB to showdown (3 total BB). After I capped preflop and bet out flop and then turn with an A popping up, if he raises I'm sure 90 pct of the time I'm beat.

It's also a WA-WB situation. So check calling would be cheaper than being raised and then spending 3 total BB to showdown.

If you check the turn, it looks like your flop bet was a continuation bet and you really have nothing. You're getting bet by anything, really. You have no idea where you're at in the hand.

I'm bet/folding the turn.

I think I'm check/calling the river, but I'm not sure. I may be bet/folding that as well. :?

What's raising you that you can beat? What's raising you that you can't beat? He's tight-agg, if he hit the A, he's raising. If he has you beat, he's raising.

what i was trying to get at was that check/calling both streets costs at most 2 BB. betting protects your hand, but there's not really much to protect against (wa/wb, except a probably unlikely backdoor flush draw).

by checking, you can also induce bluffs from hands that you have beat. by betting, any hand you have beat now folds and any hand that beats you will call/raise (kings will probably not fold). in a sense, this makes betting -EV, right?

i don't mind check/calling that much since it's against an aggressive player.

really, it costs just one more bet compared to bet/folding, and that one bet isn't much in this pot, i think.

aseem

I see people trying to represent the Ace all the time in capped pots like this. Personally, I am calling this hand down unless I'm against someone who never bluffs.

this was my thought too.

it would be drastic if we bet and folded the best hand to a bluff raise, wouldn't it?

aseem

I have to agree with betting the turn. How often is a guy going to bluff at you when you've raised+capped (PF) , bet (Flop), then bet (Turn) at an Ace? What would he think you have that would fold to a raise?

As to what to do if he does raise, if you're disciplined enough you should probably fold. If you spew like me, you'd probably call, then check call the river.

i agree that anything that raises almost always has you beat.

what i think is more important is that by betting, you are only getting action here when you're beat usually. worse hands will fold when they're way behind (you don't want that), whereas better hands will call or raise when you're way behind (you don't want that either).

by checking, you give worse hands an opportunity to bet. and by check/calling both streets, you lose at _most_ one extra bet compared to bet/folding the turn.

aseem

You're right (although there's a small chance a worse hand could call if he just can't let go).
Mainly what I'm looking at is 1) I can either take down the pot with the turn bet or know that I'm beat (if raised)
vs.
2)getting a bet from a worse hand and/or not knowing where I stand until showdown

Save a bet vs. get an extra one is something I'm not great at.

so check/calling really isn't that bad.

does anyone disagree?

aseem

Aseem,

what if villan checks behind you?

Then what would you do on the river?

check/call again most likely.

it's true that we might miss value from JJ and the like, but the contrary is also true that we might induce them to bluff now.

we could bet/fold, but i would hate folding 10-to-1 for one bet.

aseem

I had 2 hands last night where I ended up folding the best hand in big pots due to some maniac type play from my opponents. You really can't take it for granted that your beat in these hands. Logic says that your beat, but some people don't use the same logic you do. Some players aren't thinking much when they play, even at higher games.

For instance yesterday I had QQ, flop came out K high with all clubs and I had the Queen of clubs. PF was capped, so I mean I'm sticking around obviously with a flush draw and getting 10:1 on my money on the flop even after someone bet and another raised. The river paired kings and I folded QQ, which looking back was a terrible fold considering the pot was laying me 15:1 on the call. I was using logic to fold my hand though, because logically what can somebody be betting and another player raising with besides having a King, Aces or a set? Well, turned out 1 player had TT and another had 78 for middle pair.

This leads me to 1 important Rule for everyone. Don't fold hands on the river in big pots against bad players. You might think your making a good laydown, but trust me your usually getting the right price to call down even with something like top pair crap kicker if it's a big pot.

bet this turn.

because you checked...if he checks behind you bet this river all day or you might as well get a sex change now.

Ok, I'm going to have to disagree with everyone but akishore. In my opinion, betting the turn isn't such a good idea at all. I would definitely check/call the turn and then re-evaluate on the river.

You guys are missing a few things here I think:

1. What if your opponent is raising the turn with JJ, QQ, or even KK, because he planned on calling you down anyway? This way he might be able to get you to lay down a bigger pocket pair. By betting you give your opponent the opportunity to outplay you, ESPECIALLY if he knows you'll bet KK in that spot and fold to a raise.

2. There is no need to protect this hand. Your opponent most likely has two outs if your kings are still ahead.

3. Let him bluff his money off! He may try to take the pot from you when you show weakness on the turn. In fact, you might be able to collect bullets here in a situation where your opponent may have folded a smaller pair had you bet.

My vote is for the check/call on the turn and re-evaluate on the river. Betting just doesn't seem to do much good in that spot.

Play low-limit much? This aint happening. They're not that smart. That's what makes betting oh so much easier here. He said these guys are tight-aggressive, not tricky. If they're tight-aggressive, they should be raising an ace and calling down or folding anything else, should they not?

Side note - Why is this stickied? Want to make sure you can find it in the fray?

just because they're tight-aggressive doesn't mean they never bluff. even if he has the balls to do it 1 in 8 times and we fold, they make money.

using the check/call line on both the turn and river costs at MOST one extra bet. and seriously, giving a worse hand the opportunity to bluff here is huge, i think.

aseem

DN: The odds of a low limit player knowing this are about the same as the odds that you will play at our FCP .5/1 Limit Strat table on Party Poker.
:wink:

In general, villains just don't pay enough attention, and generally aren't at the table long enough to know any better.

The biggest factor to sway my decision is the villains aggression factor. If he's aggressive enough, I don't mind the check/call at all.

But, if he's at all passive, I bet/fold with the knowledge that he's not raising without the Ace, but will call with many hands I have beat.

here's a question.

how often are our reads that accurate where we can value bet to a passive player and fold to a raise in a big pot?

at the cost of at MOST one more bet (either missing it value-wise against a worse hand, or spending it to go to showdown), the check/call line absolutely prevents you from folding the best hand, and--what i think is more important--gives worse hands the chance to bluff when they might fold to your bet.

i think what's key is that you're only getting action when you're beat or when you're getting outplayed if you bet/fold. if you check/call, giving worse hands the opportunity to bluff or giving them a chance to call a bet on the river when they might have folded the turn is important, i think.

aseem

this is one of the older posts on this thread, but i think it makes a really valid point in SUPPORT of checking.



you look weak ==> you get by anything.

you get bet by anything ==> you lose the same to hands that had you beat that would have called/raised if you bet, but gain more from hands that would have folded and hands that are now bluffing.

as for the "you have no idea where you're at", yes you do. you're wa/wb, and it doesn't matter which one if you just check/call.

aseem

Aseem:

The beautiful thing about poker is that it is so open to various interpretations.

The pot is only like 5.5BB on the turn. That's not a big pot IMHO. If it were 9-10BB, that might change my mind to the point where I'd be check calling 90% of the time because the showdown value of my hand, and the odds that he'd bet a smaller pair are good enough where I'm not about to fold. In my mind, in this situation, it's still a relatively small pot, so it's a much closer decision IMHO.

With a small-ish sized pot, the decision in my mind is about 50/50 whether I bet-fold or check/call. I'm gonna go more strongly with my PokerTracker reads. If after 50 hands with the guy, he's played 60-70% of his hands... but has an agg factor of less than 1, well, it's an easy value bet.

If he's only at 20% VPIP, but his agg factor is 2 or so, I don't mind the check/call.

I'm not saying that I disagree with you Aseem, but I do think it's a close decision. I will often play smaller pots when I'm WA/WB with the bet/fold mentality. This pot is big enough, and my hand is strong enough where it's a tougher decision.

Wow...

Ok, as the OP I did check call it down because it's a WA-WB scenario. But now after all this evaluation, I'm still leaning towards a bet - fold to save the 1 BB.

I don't think we've addressed this, but if he had a smaller PP (queens, jacks, 10s, etc), wouldn't he have raised me on the flop (if he was aggro enough to raise me on the turn without the A)?

Meaning in other words, if he had the aggro-maniacal tendencies to be able to raise the turn with the A coming up, and have a smaller pocket pair, it seems logical that he would have raised the flop and not just flat called.

Unless he was somehow genius and put me on K-K. I think that constitutes the 10 pct or so where I have him beat and he's making a move. Add another 0.001 pct when he can see what I have, with some vision out of the X-Files.

Am I the only one who still feels this is an easy bet on the turn?

What is he three betting preflop that isnt raising us on the flop... AK, AQ are def. possibilities.

If we check and call down hoping to induce a bluff, what exactly is he going to bluff with on both the turn and river? It doesnt seem likely he is going to keep betting QQ, or JJ, which realistically is the only thing we're ahead of at this point (in his range of hands).

If he wants to raise our turn bet after we capped PF with QQ or JJ so be it.


This is a bet/fold on the turn

We got Daniel to agree with us Aseem, don't that feel great? haha just kidding, but I think in most instances this is a check-call situation on the turn. I don't bet this turn, because your just giving your opponent a chance to bluff with a weaker hand. If you bet, your likely getting raised by a lot of hands with or without an Ace that will try to represent an Ace. The reason why this bluff works representing the Ace is if you capped pre-flop and came out firing, that Ace likely didn't help you, unless you happened to have AA. AK is kind of unlikely given the aggressiveness that you played your hand.

By betting the turn, you have some sticky situations. What if your just called on the turn, do you still bet the river? If you bet the river and are raised, do you call the raise?

I know a lot of you advocate bet/folding, but I never do it very often, unless I'm bluffing and have no chance of winning the pot. Your just inducing your opponents to try and bluff you out of pots by doing this.

Sounds to me like it boils down to a read.

Against a skilled postflop player who knows how to raise for a free showdown, or an otherwise aggressive postflop player, check-call.

Against a weaker player who won't raise without an A here, bet/fold.

justblaze and MrNiceGuy, i like your posts.

i agree whole-heartedly, ho ho ho.

aseem

If this is a low limit game, it all depends on your read of the player. Very rarely will they be tricky enough to even consider half the stuff that would present a bluffing opportunity for them. Also, a lot of low limit players practically consider pre-turn betting as free money because they are only half bets, some get a little crazy. So again whether to raise or call down depends on the player. I would say raise though if it's low limit, because although you may be getting a worse hand to bluff if you check, there is a very good chance they will just check behind you.

What about if position was reversed and he acted first. Would that change anything? In that case I would bet and try to get a fold or a weak check raise from them. Strongly consider folding to a bet here though.

So, what did he actually have?

waay off... Any LAG will bet if we check to them here. ..

we already know that the table was mostly TA, so they are probobly sensible. But what would they 3 bet with preflop that they would raise us with if we bet on the turn, the answer is more than likely somethin that beats us.
What do they think WE have?
With our cap, our range of hands is AA, KK, QQ, AK, possible AQ

If they have QQ or JJ all of those hands beat them (besides split QQ) If we have AA, AK, or AQ, we are going to 3 bet them here and they know that. If they can truely pinpoint us as KK would be the only way they might bluff here, but I strongly doubt they have THAT perfect of a read here to make a bluff worth it.

Actually, depending on what hand range he puts us on, a strong opponent may determine that he can bluff-raise profitably if we bet the turn.

If he's got us on AA, AK, KK, QQ, or JJ - Then there are 15 ways that we have AA or AK, and 18 ways that we could have KK-JJ. If he figures we'd play them all this way, and that we'd fold KK, QQ, or JJ to his bet, then he should definitely bluff-raise with any pocket pair, risking 2 BB to win 6 BB. Even if we would call with KK, his bluff is still better than 1-2 to work, and the pot's laying him 3-1.

Be honest, how many times are we up against a strong opponent. Maybe 20%, if that?

Probably a lot less than that. Even if a guy has TAGish stats, he won't necessarily be able to put you on a hand range, predict your response, and make the right play.

But I do think most TAGish players would recognize this as a raise or fold situation with any pocket pair. And if they have a pocket pair, we don't want them to do either if we're bet/folding.

Actually, I don't care at all who my opponent is, I think check/call is appropriate against any and all players. A couple more things:

1. By using the bet/fold you'd miss the opportunity to make Kings full on the river and win some extra bets.

2. If you check/call the turn, you don't HAVE to call on the river. Many players might bet the turn there and check the river- whether they have it or not. Many players will also take a stab on the turn with 10-10 and then give up on the river.

In a sense, you can play the hand bet/fold style by check calling the turn and folding the river. This gives you a chance to get lucky on the river and won't cost you a penny more.

Frankly, I really don't think this hand is all that close. I will ask some other limit hold'em players I know and see how they feel about the hand.

1. Do you usually look to draw to two outs? This seems like a bad way to play.

2. Check/calling the turn and check/folding the river UI seems like a pretty weak line. You really don't have any idea where you're at in the hand and I really think more trash is betting when you check than raising when you bet on the turn.

I just really don't see where you're coming from with this hand.

Just wanted to take the opportunity to say great thread! It's awesome to see the different perspectives and to get DN's input. I'm reading with interest.

/sidebar

I think Daniel makes a good point, but then again, so do a lot of the other posters. The problem that I have when trying to come up with a suggestion, is that certain limits have a different caliber of player.

I personally have a hard time adjusting to lower limit play. Which is why I feel that my advice might not be suitable for everyone. I see merit in checking the turn and betting the turn. My natural tendency would be to bet the turn, since I'm the aggresor in the hand. At the same time, the ace is the one scare card I don't want to see. Anyway, I think both plays are fine.