25. - .50 at absolute (I always drop limits when I play a new site. Gives me time to get used to the software without putting myself in harms way.)

Dealt J-10 offsuit (both red) in MP1. I'd been watching the table and it's VERY passive. I decide to limp even though it might be a little early.

Flop comes K-9-Q two clubs.

BB bets. Folds. Player to my left calls. I raise. It's folded around to the big blind who calls, and the player to my left who calls.

Thoughts?

no

how many were yet to act?

that might help me quantify how bad it was :-)

j/k I know you can smoke me.
But I'd say you sacrificed some future action with this raise, notwithstanding the players you lost.

Protect this on the turn with a raise.

no

the flop raise was fine

darn, I knew I should stick to questions..not answers.

Well, idiotbocs is wrong, and it's not even close.

Serioulsy... nah.,.I just wanted to use that line against him.

Maybe idiotbocs will school me here.
I would think the number over over calls and later action is worth something.

I need some learnen

in the words of the great clarkmeister:

"they like to call. i like to let them."

WRTO, I'd love to hear your reasoning. I'm comfortable with my decision, but since you're one of the people I most respect here I'd love to see if your reasoning follows mine.

I know I'm basically asking for help, but isn't that the point of the strat forum?

its a value raise.

lots of weak players will peel on the flop (even for 2 bets) where they wouldn't on the turn.

make'em pay when they still want to play.

why _wouldn't_ you raise this flop?

you have the nuts, so you're raising for value.
your hand is vulnerable in so many ways, so you don't want to wait till the turn to raise.
a lot of players won't give you action on the turn whereas they would on the flop.
you like money.

right?



aseem

I've learned the hard way not to slow play a straight (even the nut straight) with a possible flush draw on the board. Bet for value and take what callers you can get. You already have two probable callers so you may as well extract what bets you can out of them.

I always see (and hear) that you need to protect your hand from the flush draws. I don't see the flush draws leaving to a raise though, so it seems like a waste to me more times than not (at the lower limits that I play). Maybe at the higher limits will people fold to one more SB when they have a flush draw, but I don't play the higher limits, so I don't know for sure.

I always put the raise in there myself if there is a flush draw, so it must be the correct play...lol 8)

You won't make the flush draws fold. You will make them pay more to follow their draw. You might convince a gutshot Ace-high straight draw to fold, too, which is not a bad result. At the same time, you will extract more bets (maybe even leading to a reraise-cap) from people who've hit a set, two pair, top pair, or even low pair at these limits. This is good; you are getting maximum value with the current nuts. Of course, you have to play intelligently on later streets if the board pairs or the flush completes, but that's poker.

I am agreeing with you 100% Briguy, BUT people also have to understand that we are also building the pot, increasing the pot odds for those draws to chase, and that when they do hit, not to automatically assume that their opponents are a bunch of fish who have no concept...
I hate getting sucked out on in these instances, and sometimes there is no defending against it...
THAT's POKER :!: 8)

You almost always have odds to chase a flush draw, especially when there is several people in the hand. Raising the flop doesn't make them fold. It makes them pay more to draw. And you shouldn't want to make A-high gutshots fold either. If a gutshot calls he is doing so incorrectly, be happy.

Yes, but you want to get money in the pot when you are ahead. Also, many times flush draws will chase when they doon't have the odds because it's only a small bet.
The raise was good because again, low limit, once someone puts in a bet, they'll often put in another one, especially on the cheap street. If someone has TP they're coming along unless they've got a crappy kicker.

Did you read my whole post? You have pulled just a snippet, which makes it seem like I am advocating not raising...

My point for putting that other stuff in there (if I can remember correctly - it was days ago), was that in NL, you can influence the pot odds, to make it a mistake for the draws to chase, whereas in limit, you cannot influence them to the same extent, and that in some instances, you are actually making it more likely that they will chase, and that when they hit you cry foul, and think they are a bunch of newbie biatches who should go back to the play money tables... 8)