Recently I have found myself getting bored with Hold'em so I decided to take a chunk out of my working bankroll to start learning 7-stud. I checked a couple of different sites before I decided where to put my money. It was a toss-up between Pacific (low ante structure and borderline retarded players, but horrid software and only 1-table at a time max) and Party (50% ante at the .50/1 tables but faster software, no disconnects, and the same stupid players--also allows me to do other things like play a SnG or another cash table in between stud hands). I went with Party because of the software and the ability to play more than one table (although I only play one stud table and I usually have a O8 SnG open because they require almost no thought to place in the top 2).

I have been playing for a couple weeks and I've had some success with the game so far. I just had a couple hands that I wanted to dissect and see if I could have/should have played them any differently.

Hand #1: I like my hand here. Only one over on my pair, suited and straight possiblilities. Depending on the table I would have completed but there were two players on the table that were completing with any pair so I decided that I would just call and see what develops.

7 Card Stud High ($0.50/$1), Ante $0.25, Bring-In $0.25 (hand converter)

3rd Street - (4.00 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 8:heart: ___completes
Seat 2: xx xx 3:heart: ___brings-in___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 4:heart: ___calls___calls
Hero: T:club: Q:club: Q:spade: ___calls___calls
Seat 5: xx xx K:spade: ___calls___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 5:spade: ___calls___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 7:heart: ___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 9:spade: ___calls___calls

4th Street - (10.50 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 8:heart: 9:club: ___bets
Seat 2: xx xx 3:heart: J:diamond: ___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 4:heart: 2:spade: ___calls
Hero: T:club: Q:club: Q:spade: J:spade: ___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 5:spade: 5:diamond: ___checks___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 9:spade: 6:heart: ___folds

I'm semi-sure that my Qs are good here but I'm hesitant to raise, although in retro-spect it seems pretty weak

5th Street - (7.75 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 8:heart: 9:club: 2:club: ___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 3:heart: J:diamond: J:club: ___bets
Seat 3: xx xx 4:heart: 2:spade: K:club: ___folds
Hero: T:club: Q:club: Q:spade: J:spade: 9:heart: ___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 5:spade: 5:diamond: 6:diamond: ___calls

Now I'm open-ended w/ a pair higher than anything on the board, raise?

6th Street - (11.75 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 8:heart: 9:club: 2:club: 9:diamond: ___checks___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 3:heart: J:diamond: J:club: K:heart: ___bets___calls
Hero: T:club: Q:club: Q:spade: J:spade: 9:heart: Q:heart: ___raises
Seat 6: xx xx 5:spade: 5:diamond: 6:diamond: 6:club: ___checks___calls

Wasn't exactly the straight I was looking for but it will do.

River - (19.75 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 8:heart: 9:club: 2:club: 9:diamond: xx___checks___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 3:heart: J:diamond: J:club: K:heart: xx___bets___calls
Hero: T:club: Q:club: Q:spade: J:spade: 9:heart: Q:heart: 7:spade: ___raises
Seat 6: xx xx 5:spade: 5:diamond: 6:diamond: 6:club: xx___checks___folds

Total pot: (25.75 BB)

Any comments would be appreciated.

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Hand #2:

7 Card Stud High ($0.50/$1), Ante $0.25, Bring-In $0.25 (hand converter)

3rd Street - (4.00 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 7:club: ___calls
Seat 2: xx xx J:heart: ___folds
Seat 3: xx xx J:spade: ___calls
Hero: 9:club: 8:heart: 6:diamond: ___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 3:club: ___brings-in
Seat 6: xx xx 6:club: ___calls
Seat 7: xx xx A:heart: ___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 8:club: ___folds

4th Street - (6.50 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 7:club: 4:heart: ___calls
Seat 3: xx xx J:spade: 4:club: ___calls
Hero: 9:club: 8:heart: 6:diamond: 7:spade: ___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 3:club: Q:diamond: ___checks___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 6:club: 4:diamond: ___bets

5th Street - (5.25 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 7:club: 4:heart: 5:spade: ___calls___calls
Seat 3: xx xx J:spade: 4:club: T:diamond: ___folds
Hero: 9:club: 8:heart: 6:diamond: 7:spade: T:heart: ___raises
Seat 6: xx xx 6:club: 4:diamond: 4:spade: ___bets___calls

6th Street - (11.25 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 7:club: 4:heart: 5:spade: 8:diamond: ___calls
Hero: 9:club: 8:heart: 6:diamond: 7:spade: T:heart: 6:spade: ___bets
Seat 6: xx xx 6:club: 4:diamond: 4:spade: Q:heart: ___calls

River - (14.25 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx 7:club: 4:heart: 5:spade: 8:diamond: xx___folds
Hero: 9:club: 8:heart: 6:diamond: 7:spade: T:heart: 6:spade: A:spade: ___bets
Seat 6: xx xx 6:club: 4:diamond: 4:spade: Q:heart: xx___calls

Total pot: (16.25 BB)


This hand seems pretty straight-forward. I started with a 1-gap straight draw. 4th street filled the gap and 5th brought my straight. Judging from the live boards my straight had to be good unless Seat-6 had a well disguised boat. Is anyone folding this in last position with 3 limpers + the bring-in (15:1)?

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I haven't read any books about 7-stud and it probably shows. I tend to play fairly tight, waiting for suited/straight cards. High pairs, and hands that seem to have some sort of potentional. If I'm in past 5th I'm usually taking down the pot and I find it easy to get away from hands that seem strong when I have a feeling I'm beat. I have a feeling I should be raising more often.

Thanks in advance to any criticism.

==

One more here: I was the bring-in and it was checked around twice so I caught 3 dueces. I decided to check it after the third one fell simply because my hand is showing and I'm only going to get called by someone that has me beat or has a good draw. I picked up my boat on 6th and checked again hoping that seat 4 makes his flush. Anything wrong with this? The way I saw it was, if I bet on 5th no one is going to call me and I'll win the 3.25BB pot. I checked in hopes that I could pick up a boat which I did and ended up squeezing another bet out of seat 4. Good play? bad play? Stupid? Ideas?

7 Card Stud High ($0.50/$1), Ante $0.25, Bring-In $0.25 (hand converter)

3rd Street - (4.00 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx K:heart: ___calls
Hero: 4:spade: T:diamond: 2:diamond: ___brings-in
Seat 3: xx xx K:diamond: ___folds
Seat 4: xx xx Q:club: ___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 9:spade: ___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 9:heart: ___calls
Seat 7: xx xx Q:diamond: ___folds
Seat 8: xx xx A:heart: ___calls

4th Street - (6.50 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx K:heart: 8:diamond: ___checks
Hero: 4:spade: T:diamond: 2:diamond: 2:club: ___checks
Seat 4: xx xx Q:club: 9:club: ___checks
Seat 6: xx xx 9:heart: 7:club: ___checks
Seat 8: xx xx A:heart: 9:diamond: ___checks

5th Street - (3.25 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx K:heart: 8:diamond: 5:diamond: ___checks
Hero: 4:spade: T:diamond: 2:diamond: 2:club: 2:spade: ___checks
Seat 4: xx xx Q:club: 9:club: 6:club: ___checks
Seat 6: xx xx 9:heart: 7:club: T:club: ___checks
Seat 8: xx xx A:heart: 9:diamond: K:spade: ___checks

6th Street - (3.25 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx K:heart: 8:diamond: 5:diamond: 3:spade: ___checks
Hero: 4:spade: T:diamond: 2:diamond: 2:club: 2:spade: 4:club: ___checks
Seat 4: xx xx Q:club: 9:club: 6:club: T:spade: ___checks
Seat 6: xx xx 9:heart: 7:club: T:club: 6:diamond: ___checks
Seat 8: xx xx A:heart: 9:diamond: K:spade: 3:club: ___checks

River - (3.25 BB)

Seat 1: xx xx K:heart: 8:diamond: 5:diamond: 3:spade: xx___folds
Hero: 4:spade: T:diamond: 2:diamond: 2:club: 2:spade: 4:club: Q:spade: ___bets
Seat 4: xx xx Q:club: 9:club: 6:club: T:spade: xx___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 9:heart: 7:club: T:club: 6:diamond: xx___folds
Seat 8: xx xx A:heart: 9:diamond: K:spade: 3:club: xx___folds

Total pot: (5.25 BB)

Alright, I am a pretty consistent winner at the .25/.50 cent Stud tables on Pokerstars, and although i know that doesn't make me anything special, I do consider myself a pretty solid player, so take this advice for what you think it is worth...


Hand # : I am definitely raising on third street with only one overcard to your premium pair, if the King were to reraise, which I find to be pretty rare at these low limits, you can safely muck your two queens or maybe call one bet and see if you improve (either choice to me would be acceptable, but if i didn't improve on fourth, i would probably muck when he bets). If you raise on third and he only calls, you can be pretty certain that you have the best hand and can bet aggressively the whole way. By just calling, however, you are left guessing as to whether your hand is best. From my perspective, you played this hand way too passively, as I would have been making everybody that was on a draw pay to see the next cards, which they would likely do at these limits. I would have been raising it up until somebody reraised me, representing a better hand. In summary, I would have been much more aggressive, as I feel you could have won a lot more bets from the chasers at these low limits. Stud is all about getting maximum value from your hands. You did win a nice pot, but i still think it could have been bigger.


Hand #2: I fold on third street with any most gap straight draws. Not that calling is a horrible play, with low straight cards, you are forced to catch that perfect card to fill the gap, as it is pretty unlikely that by catching a pair you will have the best hand. If you had a one-gap three straight such as T J K, that would be a lot more playable as long as not too many of your outs were already gone. That way, you can catch a queen, ten, Jack, King, and even an Ace, and your hand will improve dramatically. But with 6, 8, 9, you are forced to catch the 7 in order to have any sort of hand whatsoever, as a pair of sixes, eights, or nines wouldn't get you very far with so many callers. Also, one of the sevens was already out, making your hand even worse. Since you did call and did catch the 7, however, you would be correct in chasing your open-ended straight draw as long as nobody's board is too threatening, because you are getting the odds to do so. However, I fold this hand, as I try to stick to a tight-aggressive style, which doesn't include inside straight draws unless they are high cards.

Hand #3: Being in the hand is fine because you were the bring-in, and once you caught the third duece, you should bet, because the horrible players will call you with their straight and flush draws anyway, even if it is really likely that you have the boat. Make them pay, there is very very little chance that someone is going to bet into you with that board. When you have a board that strong (three of a kind showing) you simply have to bet and hope someone has enough to call you with. I know it sucks when you have a monster and everyone folds, but that is just part of the game. At the low limits, though, the fish will usually chase any draw, despite the chance that they are drawing dead. So if you bet on the third duece, the fish will call with their straight and flush draws and will pay you off whether they hit or not all the way until the river. If you check it down until the river, the only way you get paid at all is if you hit the boat AND they make their draw, which is pretty unlikely. By betting, you will get paid more in the long run than by simply checking and hoping they make a flush


Based on this small sample, I would say that you do seem a bit passive. In stud, you need to be aggressive early on to try and eliminate other players and to define your hand. By raising early on, it can become more clear whether a player has a high pair or whether they are just on a draw. It seems that you tend to not be very aggressive until you have a very good hand, but you need to be aggressive at all points in the hand when you either have the best hand or a very good draw. In your first example, you should always raise with your split queens and make everyone else pay to try and catch up to you. Regardless of how aggressive you are, if they set their minds to drawing, they will call any amount of bets to try and draw to it. Therefore, you will get outdrawn the about the same amount of times. The key is to maximize your profits those times that they don't outdraw you, which is the key to being a profitable player. That isn't to say that your style isn't profitable, because i really don't know, but you can definitely maximize your profit by being aggressive early on when you have the best hand, rather than waiting until later on when you have a monster and then hope someone else made a good "second best hand".


Like I said, I think I am a pretty solid player, but I do play the low limits where I make about 8-9 BB per hour, so while I am no pro, certainly, I am definitely no fish, so I hope the advice helps. I hope all of this has made sense, and if anything doesn't, I am always up to discussing any hand situations, as I myself am a learning stud player as well.

Oh, also about your comment about you finding it tough to get away from strong hands on the final two betting rounds, even when you sense you are beat, I would advise that first, try and assess, to the best of your abilities, what your opponents could possibly have based on their boards and the cards that are dead, and then try and determine how big the pot is relative to the bet you have to call. Often times, it is correct to call on the river even if you do only hold a pair of Aces and have just been bet into. Though most times you will lose the pot, you will win the pot often enough in these situations to make calling a profitable play. If the pot is any decent size at all, it is almost never correct to fold on the river, unless you know for a fact that you do not have the best hand.

Hand 1: Yeah I agree. For some reason I tend to play sort of passively when I should be super aggressive at these lower limits. I keep thinking that I will be chasing these players away when in actuality they are likely to call down with anything. Thats definately something I need to work on.

Hand 2: I understand about not playing ISD unless they are high cards because of the value of the higher pairs. Normally I would have folded this but no one raised the bring-in and it was still only $.25 to me. Into a pot of $3.75 I'm getting 15:1 on my call which, even if one of my 7s is dead is good enough odds to hit my card. If I hadn't caught the 7 on fourth I would have dropped the hand. I wouldn't have chased the straight the whole way down. From this POV do you think this is correct? Or regardless of the odds I should have folded? I just think that because I was getting such ridiculously good odds on that card coming, I had to call. Ideas?

Hand 3: Yeah. I had a bad run on Pacific poker last night. I kept getting rivered by this one player. I would have 2 pair or a high pair exposed and he would call me down with nothing just to spike something that beat me on the river. Every pot I entered I lost to him on the river. Depressing...

On the second hand, from my counting, there was only $3.00 in the pot when you had to call the $.25 bring in, which would be 12 to 1. Those are still pretty good odds, so I suppose calling here could be justified since you were last to act and could therefore be sure that noone else would raise. I would probably still fold here though, because with so many chasers, I find that a 9 or ten high straight will sometimes just be the second best hand. So while I certainly couldn't tell you for sure if calling here is a profitable play, I would guess that if it were profitable, it would only marginally be so. Therefore, being a pretty tight player, I would fold just so that I don't get in the habit of chasing a little too much. Again,though, these are just me opinions, and it could turn out that calling is the right play. Whenever I am not sure about a marginal situation, I usually just fold and find better spots for my money.


In regards to the first hand, you made the comment that you fail to be aggressive early on in hands because you are afraid of chasing everyone away. However, in this game, when you have a premium pair after third or fourth street, that is exactly what you want to try and do. You will make much, much more money with your split pair of queens going up against only two or three players than you will by allowing five to six others to hang around. Besided, any player at these limits who has their mind set on drawing will do so no matter how many bets they have to call, so you might as well charge the maximum. This is how you get maximum value out of your premium hands, which is what stud is all about.

Hand #1:
No offense, but you played this one pretty badly. You needed to raise on 3rd for sure. When you didn't do this, then it becomes imperative to raise on 4th if someone bet into you. But 3rd is where you should have raised. You're just giving people the chance to limp and then catch something. Someone with a weak three-flush that includes an ace or king (by weak, I mean that there are too many of the suit to reasonably draw at a flush -- but people do this all the time anyway at those limits) is allowed tolimp and then catches good on 4th and pairs his big card... now you're behind.

With big pairs in stud, you need to raise to isolate. As you know, it's not like HE -- very rarely are a pair of Qs going to hold up. Later, of course, as the hand turned into a monster with about 7,000+ outs, it's pretty straightforward. But at the beginning you were WAY too passive. This is just a recipe for getting drawn out on.

Hand #2:
I'm with Kowboy here. I fold this on 3rd. Even for .25 I don't call here, since you're drawing so thin. Once you caught your miracle 7 on 4th, then you can play this like any other middle-sized OESD.

Hand #3:
This is fine. You should have just bet out immediately when the third 2 hit. Everyone was going to fold anyway, so you might as well move on to the next hand.

I consider myself a Stud 8 specialist, so my thinking might be a little askew here, but here are my thoughts.

Hand 1:

Definately raise, not call there on third street. If you don't, you HAVE to on 4th street. Find out right away if your queens are good, and act accordingly. You do not want 5 or 6 players in the pot with you when all you have is a pair of queens, as they can easily be beaten by someone with a lone ace, another pair that catches good, etc.

Hand 2:

Don't play garbage like that, regardless of the number of players in the pot (unless you are on a steal, but that is anotehr story). Your pot odds may have looked tempting, but you can see a 7, 6 and 8 is already out, reducing your odds of catching...

8)

None taken. The point of the post was to try to point out the mistakes I made. For some reason when I was sitting at a stud table, I was having trouble bringing my Hold'em aggression with me.