Blinds 100-200.

I'm on the SB with 10 Q . I have about 8000 chips.

Average is around 12-14000 at this time.

MP raises to 800.

MP+2 calls.

I call. (if second guy had folded I would have folded..I went in for the bigger pot)

BB folds.

Flop:

J K A

I check to the raiser.

Raiser checks.

MP+2 goes all-in with about 6000 chips.

I go all in with my remaining 7200.

original raiser looks puzzled for a good two minutes - can't understand what the Hell either of us are doing, and then calls. He had about 12000 chips.

He lays J J .
Other guy lays K A

original raiser is dead unless running pair turns.



He questioned me for calling 10-Qo - I feel it was justified.

I question his calling bottom set against TWO all-ins with a straight on the board, and a flush draw.

Thoughts on pre-flop call?
Thoughts on checking post-flop?

original raiser is dead unless running pair turns.

No.

fold preflop.

or Jack...information not previously disclosed...after the hands were shown one of the other players stated he folded it.

Yeah, I would probably fold preflop. Q10 is a very weak hand, especially facing a raise and a call. To call 700, you need a 1/3.3-3.4 chance to win for correct pot odds, and you definitely don't have that against any 2 random hands that would either raise to 800, or call a raise to 800.

Call 700 to win 1900 pot.

2.7 to 1 payoff (ignoring implied odds).

Q-10 off to win in that situation, against those cards, is 4.2 to 1.

Also - these guys were just as likely to bet 4 times the blind with pocket 7's or 8's.

In that situation what weight (and how much) should I give to implied odds? Especially against two players.

I fold this pre-flop to a 4xBB raise plus I'm out of position the rest of the way.

Post flop, I check the flop also and go for the check/raise all-in.

Initial raiser's call of two all-ins is ok. He has a set and redraws to the boat; hard to put someone on Q10; AK or AJ are more likely hands in which case he's ahead.

I HATE being the SB. Had you folded pre-flop, you would have been very upset with this particular scenario's results, but it is a fold pre-flop for me, with that chip stack and all that jazz. :wink:

I knew I was going to have to say this when I looked at the title

Fold Preflop

if you had position on these guys and great reads on them the call pf would not be horrible, but when you're first to act on the flop its not a good idea to call.

With this thread, IMO, it's obvious somebody caught
you and beat you.

Did you get all your money in with the best hand? -yes

Did you have any draws to improve your hand? -not really
(save for 2 running diamonds)

Does the best hand after the flop always stand up? -no

Post flop play...what choice do you have, with the nuts,
you go all in, and let the cards fall where they may..
(i agree tho you should have folded pre-flop)

Did he get his money in with the best hand? Not really. Preflop he made a terrible call that ended up working out pretty well. After the flop, the hand played itself.



Q/10 off is losing tons of value to those hands. It's 1/5 to take down the hand and you're contributing significantly more - and that's with your opponents holding cards that dont dominate you.

The stacks aren't that deep. You have little room to "outplay" someone to any significant degree and the chip stacks arent big enough for them to make many significant errors.. You're as often going to be on the shit end up "implied odds" as you are on the good side if you know only the approximate strength of their hand but not the actual hand itself.
The only way you win big is if the flop comes out EXACTLY as it did in this case. Good job at catching a miracle flop. Too bad that, by the sounds of things, chance happened to crap out on you half way through the hand. It has a tendancy to do that.

So they'll also raise with AQ and A-10 and KQ and such. Just because they might have 77 or 88 does not mean they do have it. You're looking for justification in making a bad pre-flop call that ended up working out in your favor.

No, not at all, it's just a simple observation....I'm not trying to justify anything...I'm trying to learn why it is a terrible call, or a bad call, or an OK call, or what.

As stated, I'm trying to understand how to work in the implied odds here and how they should be calculated to determine if they justify my call. (and maybe they never do)


Interesting note - after the fact I was reading Super System and DB states that, in NLHE, he will call Q-10 off (and other similar trouble hands) against a standard raise and at least one caller. I'm not saying I'm Doyle Brunson, and I didn't do it because he does (like I said, I read it after this hand occurred), it's just interesting to note that he seems to think that the implied pot odds might justify the call.




btw - I did win the hand.

definately fold pre-flop for one reason....OUT OF POSITION with a marginal hand at best.

you got lucky on that flop ....

In cash games with stacks that are significantly deeper, when you have better position, AND if you're a strong enough player (relative to the competition), it's not a bad call.

In your situation, it is.