10/20 (6 handed)

I get TT UTG and open raise for the 3rd time in a row.
BB, who is getting frustrated with me, calls.

flop is 8 ,8 ,6 (4.5sb)
BB checks, I bet, BB calls.

turn is the 2 (3.25BB)
BB checks, I bet, BB calls.

river is the 7 (5.25BB)
BB checks, I bet, BB raises, I fold getting 8-1 with an overpair.

am i retarded?

Any type of read beside he's frustrated? I think he may have been oesd and hit the seven.

meh.

he's a little too loose/passive. above the average party donk...but not by much.

River raise looks very suspicious, but why slow play an 8 there? Doesn't really make sense

I think the key is the third time in a row part.

I had a very similar situation just yesterday where I had a huge run of cards come my way, and had open-raised probably 3 or 4 pots out of 6 or 7. The next hand I had yet another beauty that definately should have been raised, and opted to just limp in UTG (with the intention of re-raising if it was raised after me), due to the image my previous hands had provided.

With all that being said, I think the fold was very questionable for one big bet.

:?

It's a good fold if you don't think you have the best hand more than 1/9 times.

Too many people call here, sure that when their opponent plays the hand like this, he'll show a winning hand 9/10 times.

People need to stop calling "just one more bet ont he river" in situations that do not warrant it.

Ice

thats basically what I was thinking. You agree that this was one of those cases?

[quote=idiotbocs][quote]People need to stop calling "just one more bet ont he river" in situations that do not warrant it. [/quote]

thats basically what I was thinking. You agree that this was one of those cases?[/quote][/quote]

I am very curious to know if this IS one of those situations. I agree 100% that there are times when it is clear that you should fold, even when it is only one more bet, but this definately doesnt look like one of them to me. :?

Idiot will show a winning hand often enough IMHO for this to be an easy call. His 10's over 8's will counterfeit any two pair made with a 6 or 7 on the board either of which BB would/may raise on the river if he puts Idiot on a smaller pair or two overcards. I could easily see BB w/ A-7 try this move, just as often as when he has a third 8.

BB is giving up an AWFUL lot of bets here if he's slowplaying an 8 or a boat and check-raising the river (when Hero may decide to just check it down). If he made his boat on the river, good for him, but I definitely think an overpair to the board is worth paying him off for one more bet when it is very unlikely villain has a straight, and there's no potential flush.

Different story obviously if we've got an under two pair, or less or if the board is especially scary. But then again, in those cases we are likely to be checking this one down.

i was bet/folding the turn because I expected him to check/raise an 8. He didn't so I put him on an underpair, a straight draw, or a weirdly played 8.

I'm betting that if he was on the straight draw, it was an OESD with 7-9, and when he missed the river but paired his 7's for top two with the board, he went for the check-raise on the river (a strange play, but if he thought he was best, and he thought you would bet, maybe it wasn't horrible).

If that's the case, then you are ahead of two of the three hands you put him on at the turn, and adding to that fact that you didn't think he had the 8, I don't see how you fold the river here with those pot odds.

I'd call the river raise. If he has an 8, 77, or 66, I'm paying him off. He's probably put you on overcards, and is doing some wishful thinking with 9-7.

if the opp was more aggressive, i could see him check/raising the river with alot of hands I beat (97, busted flush draw, busted straight draw, smaller pocket pair).

Do you guys really think a loose/passive player is going to check/raise the river without something better than TT887?

He doesn't know that you have that hand though. His thoughts on your range of hands could be any pair, ace king, ace queen, etc. I just can't see the fold in this hand to the check-raise... :wink:

imo, passivist don't think like that. They wouldn't put me on a range of hands...that means they are less likely to check/raise without goods.

does:

"I have a pair of sevens, im going to check/raise" sound right?

what about:

"Maybe if I check/raise the river he will think I have an 8 and fold"?

remember, it has to be 1 in 8 to make the call correct.



I think a passivist would lead out with a pair of sevens.

Honestly, I just think it's weird to play bet/fold on both the turn and river. It seems to me that if that's your plan on the river, it's better to just check it down. I think it's important to note that you thought he was frustrated. This is a kind of frustrated river play, I think, that can come from any type of player 1/10 times. It's like a last ditch effort to represent a monster hand when, if he really had it, he's misplayed at every opportunity.

Also, interestingly enough the cardplayer 52 tips from today suggests that if you are last to act on the river you can call more often if your pot odds are close. I think they are close enough here. http://www.cardplayer.com/52tipsFull.php

Finally, you put him on three potential hands on the turn, 2 of which you beat, and the third of which he would have played very poorly. I think the pot odds justify the call there. You are relying very heavily on your read of the type of player he is, but seemingly discounting your read on the types of hands he could have.

It would take a very strong read of the villain here for me to just let this one go especially if I think he is already frustrated and possibly tilting. This is one of the VERY rare times when I might be calling just to keep him honest, and learn what hand he is playing in this strange manner for next time.

ok.

I called and he showed 77. :x

Aaahhh... so you lied about folding. I knew it looked like a pretty strange play from you!!! :wink:

OK, so you got drawn out on, but your read was dead on about him having an underpair on the turn, and he hit a lucky river, knew it wouldn't be a scare card for you as a TAG, and he went for the check raise.

You still played it right, I think. If you had others still in the pot after you, it would have been an easy fold, but as last to act heads-up, I still think it was a good call.

Thank God....

I was afraid you had learned to fold, and would now be totally unbeatable :-)

I think it's pretty close...

I did a little work

Tell me if it sounds fair/if im completely ignorant

Nice work - looks like it should be a fold then - he's much more likely to play the upper hands this than he is the lower hands, I would think.

I'm pretty sure I would've called at the table though.

well, the work actually says I should call...

Two things I noticed pretty quickly. You have 4-9 in there instead of 5-9.

Secondly, your second section should be entitled "Hands I can beat when check/raised" The first section are all the hands that beat you whether check raises or not.

That was a bit confusing to me until I looked at it closely. Aside from that it looks good. You are right, it is a very close play.

He called the flop and the turn with only 2 outs and a backdoor straight draw? Why are you worried? You'll make that extra river bet back 10-fold.

Maybe it is a leak in my game, but I pay off the 2-outer river check-raise, the odd time that it happens.

maximize (+)EV + minimize (-)EV = increased winrate

Oops - misread it. Yeah, a close decision then.