I have been suffering horrible bad beats on at least 3 different online poker sites lately.

Pokerstars Odds seem to be horrible when it comes to big tournaments. A good is example is there are 400 players left out of 1900 tourney, i am ranked 83rd and get AA, i go all in preflop to collect blinds and calls and one dude calls me with 22 ( he has me covered) and gets a 2 on the flop. I know this can be possible but it always seems to happen often online.

They all tell you that they dont care who wins but i think they want tournaments and sit&go to end so people buy in other ones and pay more fees. Cash games, they get a higher rake if the pot is bigger.

Is it better to stick with Sit and Go or just cash games? I just dont get how many bad beats i am facing.

Thanks for letting me vent.

Ps: suffered similar hands on Pokerroom and Full Tilt.

It's called a losing streak, they happen to everybody. Just because you get a few bad beats here and there does not mean they are rigged. Why would they be anyway, there is no benefit for the site.

well the faster people are out, the faster they buy back in other tourney thus generating more fees for the site, just a thought.

ok, yeah, just a thought but its kinda...out there. Its about 10000...so forth times likely you just a having bad luck online

The answer is NO!!!

They are not rigged, stop asking.

It all happens in real games too... I have seen KK get busted by 72o... hit a 2 on the flop, another on the river!

I played a tourney today with 1700+ and took a few bad beats myself, but I didn't lose my head about it, and I won the thing. You're really never out till you're out. They have no reason to rig them, they probably make billions of dollars a year. It's not worth bad publicity.

Yesterday I played one, read a guy on a bluff since he was doing it so often, I had AK, flop was rags... I called his all in... he turns over AQ... and hits the Q on the turn. It pissed me off pretty bad, but it's the luck of the draw.

thats hilarious. theyre really worried about making an extra $1000 when theyre probly raking in a million a day. HAHAH

oh and since they can cater to so many more players at any time, dont you think theyre making more than any casino in the world is? if you could create a program that lets people play poker where you take huge rakes and make tons of cash with little overhead, would you take the risks of cheating just to make a little more money?

Have yall ever read Small Stakes Hold'em?

In the beginning of the book it sais:

"There is no such thing as 'flop lag.' If you have been 'running good,' or 'playing a rush,' you are no more likely to be dealt a good hand in the future. It isn't true that 'someone always makes two pair when I have aces,' or that 'everyone else always makes their flushes, but I always miss mine.' Pocket kings are not actually 'ace magnets,' and not everyone hits his two-outer against you. Past results do not effect the cards dealt in future hands."

It's funny how people actually think those thnigs. :roll:

I was looking for the type or response "wrto4556" provided. Not a response like the one "x3000gtx" provided. His arrogance truely shows at the poker table and in the forums. Unfortunatly, any community has to deal with this type of individual.

Thanks WRTO, that helped

People seem to forget that hands like that happen A LOT in poker. The guy that wins a tournament, or even someone that makes it to the final table will hit some lucky hands.

The fact that pocket kings are ace magetns is the fact that when an ace comes down, it sticks with you. You don't forget it, and it seems to happen more offen than not.

I mean, I could swear that whenever I make a split pair, a higher board pair shows up. I know that it isn't true, but I remember when it does happen.

i thought me saying "oh and since they can cater to so many more players at any time, dont you think theyre making more than any casino in the world is? if you could create a program that lets people play poker where you take huge rakes and make tons of cash with little overhead, would you take the risks of cheating just to make a little more money?" was pretty helpfull. doesnt that make you realize that there is no reason for them to rig the site? im not arrogent, im just confident.

I've been so disgusted with online the last 3 months. Bad beats & set ups for 3 months straight. I've been playing online for 1.5 yrs now and have lost a grand in the last 3 months playing low stakes. It took me 6 months to lose a grand my first 6 months when I had no clue how to play. There is something wrong with this picture. Luckily, I'm still running ahead but barely.

It's not rigged, but I do question action flops. I've had an unusual amt of bad beats against me the last 3 months but even more noticeable are the set ups I've been on the losing end. My flush is losing to a higher flush, my straight is losing to a higher straight, or my 2 pair are losing to a higher 2 pair. I mostly play cards that equal 20 to 21 with some exceptions. In other words, I've struggled to win hands period no matter what I'm holding. Another weird thing I've noticed is when I do have a monster...if I don't lose...I merely split the pot.

I started keeping simple stats and here was tonight's session for example:

I went all in heads up with the best hand 6 times and won once. Been the norm for 3 months (I think). Just started to keep track. Sometimes a 54% fav sometimes a 72%...I figure it all evens out to a little less than 2 to 1 after many hands are recorded.

I've come to the conclusion I just have to stop playing online. If I can't win no matter what I have, it's probably time to stop. I may try playing live a lot more since i live 2 min from the only Card Club in MN. Then, I'll have something to compare to.

Blackjack, same thing for me. The bad beats i can understand but the set ups is what really kills me...

maybe you need to reexamine your play? you could not be betting enough to get crap hands out, and people are just catching cards. no matter what, there will always be some amazing ways that you lose. its part of the game. im sure youve lucked out and won your fair share of hands you should have lost. good luck

Did you not get anything from what I said. All of what sklansky was talking about was live play...in casinos! This shit happens wherever you go.

I've come to the conclusion I just have to stop playing online. If I can't win no matter what I have, it's probably time to stop.


I've come to the conclusion that you're horrible at NL Holdem.

Playing live isn't going to fix that.

You also need to be aware when you can be beat by higher flushes and straights. If the board helped you, it might have helped someone else even more. Keep in mind all the possible hands that beat you.

good one

what i wanna know is why you were hoping ot just collect the blinds with AA... you should want a call

lol...I get a kick out of some you guys who think you're the greatest players ever and can't lose. Personally, I could care less what you think about my play. I don't admit to being a great player, but merely a good player. Looking at my session last night for example, good players get their money in with the best hand 6 out of 8 times even though I lost all but 1. Not to mention losing flopping a flush and a straight. Poker isn't a game of how much you win or lose, it's a game of making good (correct) decisions. I'm making a lot of correct decisions vs bad decisions and have been losing my ass for 3 months now.

Live is going to make a difference. Online play is not a substitute for live play. All the great pros say it. I've played about 200 hands live and in that small sample, never saw anyone with AA. The best hand I've ever been dealt was 1010 and it was not uncommon to see middle pair win a pot with 3 callers all the way down to the river. I ran into some strange flops where I flopped 2 pair and my opponent flopped higher 2 pair, but live play is more REAL. If anyone out there thinks online play is truly random, they are kidding themselves. This does not mean it's rigged.

Jayistheman, because the blinds were at 200-400 and ante $25, there was about 800-900 on the table so i went all in. I have lost many hands with AA that sometimes it is best to just push people out and u are more likely to get someone with Ak or AQ to call u.

I can understand why you feel that online is rigged. I play both online and live and this is what I find. Yes I have seen more quads and ridiculous hands online then when I play live. But you have to see it this way. If you play long enough ( I mean Years and years) of live poker you will see some crazy beats as well, and win your fair share of ridiculous hands. It comes down to how many hands you play. Online you play at least 50 times more hands that you would play live. There is no shuffle, there is no dealer trying to count side bets, rakes ect. The action is a lot faster, giving you more chances to see these hands more frequently. I dont think that these places would risk all for cheating, but I think that its a numbers game in terms of hands played.

Just a thought.

First of all, the phrase "small sample" says a lot here.

Second, unless you saw everyone's hand who went all the way to the river, there's a very good chance someone won a pot with aces and didn't have to show.

Third, if the hands aren't rigged, but aren't "random", what card combinations or occurrences are you claiming will happen more often online?

Ziggy is correct. The larger number of online hands, coupled with selective memory syndrome, has more to do with the online results than a lack of randomness from the online card generators.

"coupled with selective memory syndrome, has more to do with the online results than a lack of randomness from the online card generators."

which is another good point from Mister Hand. You will not remember the times you out drew AA or AK with your 33s or 44s, but only remember the times you lost to them. trust me it happens to us all.

After a rocky 1st few meetings at the table and on the forum, im happy to communicate with and read x3000gtx posts.

We are alll different people with our own styles plus characters. GTX just gave it you straight. And if you look through all the waffle (excuse the bad punn there :wink: ) his answer hits the nail on the head.

GTX won 2 time in a row on the NL Tuesday night NG Open. He talked the talk and looks like he is walking the walk. If a bit of tough talking rubs you up the wrong way he is winning.... If you encounter him on a table will a few choice words get your bloodboiling and on to a Tilt situation.

As you will see from my signature.... to be the man you have to beat the man. The leaderboard doesnt lie, and at the moment GTX is the man. I for one had an off game last night, made a greedy slow play decision that blew up in my face. Like a golf swing I knew what I did wrong as soon as Id hit the call button after the river.

As for the are on-line gaming platforms rigged, I would say the major players ie Poker Stars, Party Poker etc are 100% not.

I would be more concerned about College types sitting in a dorm all on lap tops milking the mid value tables as a team. No its all alleged, but wouldnt that be the most likely method of 'cheating' that is encountered. Maybe even chip dumping in Sit & Go's?

However, I would add wherever money is concerened there is always room for corruption. If not from the corporation, but from its customers and its employees.

"Second, unless you saw everyone's hand who went all the way to the river, there's a very good chance someone won a pot with aces and didn't have to show. "

Didn't Stu Unger have a quote like the following: "Pocket Aces are only good for winning small pots and losing large pots"

And how true does that ring. People often slow play aces and call till the end no matter what the board, thus why people often have the perception that Aces are always getting busted.

Posted: Wed, Jan 12th, 2005 7:47 Post subject: Re: are all the online poker site rigged?

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"blackjak
lol...I get a kick out of some you guys who think you're the greatest players ever and can't lose. Personally, I could care less what you think about my play. I don't admit to being a great player, but merely a good player. Looking at my session last night for example, good players get their money in with the best hand 6 out of 8 times even though I lost all but 1. Not to mention losing flopping a flush and a straight. Poker isn't a game of how much you win or lose, it's a game of making good (correct) decisions. I'm making a lot of correct decisions vs bad decisions and have been losing my ass for 3 months now.
Live is going to make a difference. Online play is not a substitute for live play. All the great pros say it. I've played about 200 hands live and in that small sample, never saw anyone with AA. The best hand I've ever been dealt was 1010 and it was not uncommon to see middle pair win a pot with 3 callers all the way down to the river. I ran into some strange flops where I flopped 2 pair and my opponent flopped higher 2 pair, but live play is more REAL. If anyone out there thinks online play is truly random, they are kidding themselves. This does not mean it's rigged. "

Blackjak in yoursmall sample of 200 hands in what about 6hours or more at best, not seeing aa is not mathmatically possible, since it is dealt 220:1 hands. like any other pocket pair. So if you sat even shorthanded at 6 players, out of around 1300 hands aa had to have been dealt, what happened was you ran into good players that could lay down a hand that was beaten.
Also about your comment that good players get their money in the pot when they have the best of it. I think that quote is so over used. You are complaining about losing hands that were 52 percent to 70 some percent favorites. I am thinking your decision making is poor, but that you are also going through an unlucky period losing races. If you are losing to higher straights and higher flushes then i don't think your hand selection is as good as you claim and your ability to read the other players are lacking. I for one love middle suited connectors, or semiconnectors, but learning to play them for a positive value vs a losing one is another story. I mean how many straights can you have the worst of it if you are playing cards that equal 20 or 21. and if you are losing to higher flushes then you are probably calling bets that you should not, like probably playing QJs or KJs too often, while you are getting outplayed by opponents that are raising you with AKs or even KQs when they see your chips hitting the internet felt with cards like that qj or kj.
well in the end, i guess your complaining about getting beat by better hands and the fact that you only play really good hands just do not add up. I think you could use some of the criticism offered by other players on here or just keep losing your money to them.

One word: VARIANCE

I find that most of the people that complain that they get an inordinate amount of bad beats. More than the average players. And there are many factors for this attitude.

1. misunderstanding of probability and statistics. probability theory is an essential part of games of chance. one of the key parts of this is variance which basically says that you will experience the highs and lows of all the possibilities and they will happen in random order. we've all experienced this. there are days where it seems like you can't win a hand to save your life and then there are days when it seems like you can't do any wrong and are winning every hand you play. i personally have just come out of a three month rut where i was just on the wrong end of the luck stick. it happens. take comfort that you are getting your money in with the best hand and in the long run you should turn a profit. which bring me right into #2...

2. good players and bad beats. it is just the nature of the game that good players will receive more bad beats than bad players for the simple reason that the good player is getting their money in with the best hand most of the time. if you are in with the best hand 80% of the time that doesn't mean you are entitled to win 80% of the time. that just means the odds are in your favor. if you consistently get your money in with the best hand, you will be a winner in the long run.

3. skepticism about the internet. everyone knows that there are ways to manipulate any computer system to do basically whatever you want. and random number generators are never completely random. so there is a possibility of patterns but it is highly unlikely.

4. and the famous conspiracy theory that the sites want games to finish as quick as possible so they can get more started. this is just nonsense. making the cards fall a certain way will not affect anything. the tournament structure is how they determine that. how high the blinds are and how often the increase. this is what speeds tournaments along which is why the blinds move up so fast online. that is how they finish tourneys.

5. the speediness of online hands and being able to multi-table. hands go faster online. you don't have to wait for a dealer to shuffle cards. you don't have to wait for the dealer to count or push a pot to the winner. you don't have to wait when they get a new setup or change dealers. all this allows for more hands per hour online which easily translates into more of everything. more winning, more losing. more hitting miracles and more bad beats. add the fact you can sit at multiple tables and then everything really increases. you should get 3x as many bad beats sitting at 3 tables than at 1. again, its odds.

i have been playing poker for years now. both live and online. the same things happen in both places. i've caught one outers sitting in the club and have lost to one outers sitting there as well. it all happens everywhere. being able to work through those down times are what separates the good players from the average players.

Well considering it was low stakes limit hold em, no one was going to lay down AA. At times we were playing 11 handed.

I love how everyone thinks they know it all on here. I certainly don't. I'm not even suggesting online is rigged. I'm suggesting 'action' flops are definitely prevelant more online than in the live game. It is something to be concerned with. Unfortunately for 3 months, I've been on the losing end of most of them even with the best starting hand.

Call it an unlucky streak, call it what you want. I'm losing to some pretty bad players and that's disturbing when you start to see a lot of disturbing trends online. 3 months is a long time considering how many hands you see online. I may not win playing live, but I will feel way more comfortable about the cards coming out. Then again, I may clean house.

UPDATE:

With tonight's session I'm now 2 for 11 all in heads up starting with the best hand since I started keeping track last night. Was beat with A7 vs 107 and AKs vs 106o. I recall those two tonight for sure.

I'm 1 for 4 when starting the hand behind. The one hand I won, I was a 46% fav to win hand.

UPDATE 5 MIN LATER:

Now 2 for 13 when starting the hand ahead heads up all in. Flopped trips one hand and guy called to hit open ended straight draw on river. Then 2 hands later had AA cracked by K10s when a 2nd ten hit on the river. Just to give you an idea of what I'm going all in with. See post above as well. I'm not no math genius, but this is already deviating too far off course through 13 hands to be random. Try dealing with it for 2.5 months.

I'm really horrible at NL hold em I guess like that player suggests.

thats the game man. if you dont like it go play checkers.

I'm 1 for 4 when starting the hand behind. The one hand I won, I was a 46% fav to win hand.

Are you trying to prove that the site is rigged against everyone or just against you?

STOP YOUR WHINNING FISH THIS GAME CAN COST A NEW CAR LEARNING TO PLAY. I'LL BET MOST OF US HAVE OR ARE PAYING IT.

LEARN GET BETTER

I have been playing online for two years and I do not think that it is rigged. I play very low buyin Sitngo's and have seen just about everything! However I am holding my own and maintaining my bankroll with a small profit over the past four months.

COld streaks and bad beats are common and I too get frustrated but I recognize that these elements are part of the game. Take a break, read a book and then go back at it.

I played in a home game the other night with five of my buddies. We played 92 hands of cards. One guy had a full house twice in a row, another had AA twice and I had AA once. One short stacked player won three coin flips in a row to stay alive and I had AK suited against a short stack with 93 suited in an all in situation and lost!

I won this tournament by the way, but we had a great laugh about how people complain about Online Poker being juiced, rigged or full of bad beats and that our home game (as noted above) is a fine of example of the beauty of poker.

With AA you are still only an 82% favorite to win.

I used to play blackjack in casinos years ago. The nearby roulette tables had digital display boards that showed the last 20 or so numbers that had come up. 10 red results in a row(1023-1), 8 even followed by 6 odd, 2 zeroes in a row(1000-1) etc - all very common. This is what variance is all about. When the results are against you, it can affect you emotionally if you don't have the proper outlook or bankroll. Poker, unlike roulette, has positive expectation if you play better than your opponents. As long as your play is fine, you have to win long-term, it's the length of the 'long-term' that most players can't appreciate or accept.
In particular, Texas Hold'em is a game of small edges, and you are never usually that far ahead. You are trying to exploit small edges, so this game has a high variance even if you are significantly better than your opposition(which you may not be). If you cannot deal with the swings of Texas hold'em, I suggest learning to play limit Omaha8 PROPERLY(and I must stress properly), and you can clean up the low-limit games with half the bankroll that you'd need for Texas hold'em.

Yes

I'm really horrible at NL hold em I guess like that player suggests.


Yup.

Why noy keep track of all the other money you're tilting away while keeping track of your all in hands.

Try Bridge.

I don't think the sites are rigged, but I do feel there is cheating going on. I'm sure there are bots playing and the scenario mentioned above about the college students all on laptops seems very likely.

I went all in AA and guy got quads 2s.

I've played for real money at:
UB
Pokerroom
Hollywoodpoker
Absolutepoker
GutshotPoker

This past month and have came out Ahead at all of those poker sites!

So from a winning players perspectiver if you were to ask me if online poker is rigged i would have to reply,"only when i get outdrawn all the time".

Online poker may not be rigged...but it can't every replace a live game...

I [b]think this has been posted before[/b] but since it is so informative I will post it until people stop accusing poker is rigged because they are noobs and are sad cuz they lost $50 cuz they got rivered. Thats the game man its not over till the last card....if you every hand was won on the flop then there would be no point to the game.

So here is your proof:

http://www.billrini.com/archives/001169.html

:!: