I've just started playing limit this year, so please bare with me. I started with 10$ and i slowly grinded up to around 125$, then lost some due to a bad day at the NL tables.

I play on pacific so I cant use the converter, but I'll do my best to present the hand in a clear way.

25/50(cents) on pacific poker

Ad Qc on the button
UTG folds, UTG + 1 calls, UTG + 2 folds, UTG + 3 folds, UTG + 4 calls I raise and the blinds and all the previous limpers call.

Flop: 9s 10s 8d

its checked to me, I don't raise

Turn: 5h

once agian its checked to me, do they really have no piece of this? so with 2 overs and a gutshot this time i raise. SB folds, BB calls, UTG + 1 calls, UTG + 4 calls,

River: Qd

yet again it is checked to me, I couldn't believe that anyone at this limit would have the discipline to check a striaght here so I decided to raise. SB folds, UTG + 1 raises, UTG + 4 folds.

uh-oh, thats not good news. Theres 8.5 bbs in the pot, would you call?

Also im looking for advice on my overall play. Do you like my raise preflop? I normally wouldn't make it agianst a full field, but with only 2 callers before me and on the button I decided to try it. Should I have raised the flop? Not raised the turn?

Thanks for the help in advance!

Here's your hand cleaned up:

8-handed
Hero is button with [Ad] [Qc]
1 fold, MP1 calls , 2 folds, CO calls, Hero raises, SB calls, BB calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.

Flop (10 SB): [9s] [10s] [8d]
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, CO checks, Hero checks

Turn (5 BB): [5h]
SB checks, BB checks, MP1 checks, CO checks, Hero bets, SB folds, BB calls, MP1 calls, CO calls.

River (9 BB): [Qd]
BB checks, MP1 checks, CO checks, Hero bets, BB folds, MP1 raises, CO folds, Hero...

Preflop raise is fine. You absolutely, positively need to lead out on the flop EVERY TIME you take the lead preflop. It's called an "autobet" and it's something you need to learn very quickly. I hate the turn bet. They've checked it this far, I'm taking the free river card. I'm also checking the river. Yeah, you hit your card, but I think it'd be a miracle if one of them didn't have a J or 2 pair. Overall, I hate this hand.

Buy SSHE

I'd bet the flop. Standard continuation bet

I'd check/fold the turn UI and check/fold the river unimproved (UI)

It's an obvious trap hand

Gargamel says, "Your first mistake is confusing the word 'bet' and the word 'raise.'"

Checking the river with a J here is weak. Stop thinking it takes 'discipline' to go for a check-raise on the river.

Ice

Thanks for all the advice guys, I've been trying to borrow SSHE from one of my friends, but hes taking forever to read it. I realize I have some holes in my game, and I appreciate you guys dropping your input and helping me improve.

oh n btw, custom how'd you do that? The converter told me it didn't support pacific.....

-slick

Buy it. You should read it more then once, anyway.

I've seen the converter enough times that I can do it by memory.

Buy SSHE and after you've read it cover to cover, keep it in the bathroom.

please don't give that advice.

there are plenty of flops that shouldn't be auto-bet, ESPECIALLY in loose games (*cough* pacific) where you have no fold equity.

i check this flop and gladly accept a free card every time. we have a marginal hand in a five-way pot. two overs that aren't clean half the time, a dirty gutshot draw (two flush cards on board and we have no backdoor flush draw), and finally, the board is extremely coordinated, so you have even less fold equity.

please, don't bet this flop.

you raise pre-flop to push an equity edge, not to take control of the hand. you don't have control (what i mean is fold equity--you can't push people off hands) in these games, so you don't raise with the intention of bluffing any flop.

please, custom. i used to auto-bet. it was a big leak. review the overcards section of SSHE. you bet with overcards in a short-handed or heads-up pot where you have decent fold equity. you also tend to bet more on semi-coordinated boards where you have an informational advantage. this is a horrid board for us, and this is a five-handed pot in a loose game. no fold equity. we will get called probably two to three times on average every time we bet.

sorry if i'm sounding desperate.

but please, don't bet this flop.

stop auto-betting in loose games. in tight games, yes. in loose games, discretion is by far the better part of valor.

aseem

:eh:

I was under the impression that you should always autobet. I may have to make a huge change to my game. Can anyone second akishore's advice?

I'd bet the flop. Standard continuation bet


Stop being retarded. It's not "standard" to bet into 45 people when you miss the flop.

Here, you have a ten outer(ish) and it's ok to bet for value. If this flop is 257, no, don't bet.

i think ten outs is being a little too generous.

flush draw is very possible in a five-way pot, so any spade ace or queen is no good. same with any spade jack for the gutshot.

we also could very easily be reverse dominated agianst A-9, etc., so subtract maybe two more outs on the generous side.

so i think we only have about five or six outs.

check this and take a free card, or bet for value and for a free card on the turn?

aseem

flush draw is very possible in a five-way pot, so any spade ace or queen is no good. same with any spade jack for the gutshot.

Could be a set too, or a made straight.....

Or someone might have an extra hole card and have quads...

Seriously, betting this flop is ok. You're discouting too much.

yeah, you're right.

i also realized how massive the pot is.

save pots, not bets.

i'll hammer that into my head.

thanks,
aseem

Doyle talks about 90% continuation betting. Is this a realistic percentage?

he played mostly no limit. different beast.

when he played limit, he was playing tight/aggressive high-stakes games. different beast.

90% is not realistic for loose small stakes games. i don't know a number, but i'd venture closer to 60%-70%? maybe as low as 50%.

aseem

Wow. That's a nice slap of reality for me. Thanks for telling me - I'm surprised you're the first.

alright, some quick inaccurate math.

(assuming LOOSE game, and assuming it's checked to you on the flop after you raise every time)

(i know the probs of getting AA vs AK is different because of card frequency, but i'm too lazy for that. i also know that AKo is different from AKs, but again, i'm too lazy to differentiate between suited and offsuit).

early position, raising AA-TT/AK-AJ/KQ (i limp 99 down, ATs and KJs, fold most everything else). that's 9 different raising hands for the pairs, yo'ure betting 100% on any flop basically, OOP. for the others, you hit 33% of the time and miss the rest. let's say you bet everytime you hit and bet maybe 50% of the time you miss (sometimes we only have one over like with AJ on Qxx flop, or none with KQ on Axx flop... sometimes AK sucks on a 987 monochrome board, etc.). so, we bet 66% of the time with the non-pair hands.

so, in early position, we bet... (5/9)*100% + (4/9)*66%... about 70%.

in middle position, lets say we add AT/KJ (i still limp 99 down, and limp a lot of other hands). so two more nonpair hands. we'd probably still bet 100% of the time when we hit. since we're more in position, we'd probably bet maybe 66% of the time that we miss (as opposed to 50%).

so, in middle position, we bet... (5/11)*100% + (6/11)*77%... about 80%.

in late position, lets say we add nine more raising hands (99-77, QJ sometimes, etc...), an arbitrary number to give me a nice even 20 total raising hands (you see how accurate this is? ). lets say 8 total pair hands (AA-77) and 12 total nonpair hands. bet maybe 75% of the time with pair hands (if one loose guy limped, you raised in CO with 77, button cold-called and both blinds called, suddenly 77 doesnt look so good anymore when the flop comes K-J-9), and maybe 75% of the time with nonpair hands (as opposed to 50% of 66%).

so, in late position, we bet (8/20)*75% + (12/20) *75%... about 75%.

so you can see it's between 70-80%, really inaccurately. 90% is too high. but, i'm venturing that i overestimated a lot, so i'd estimate that you should be betting 60%-70%. if the game is looser than normal, drop down to maybe 50% (betting with A K on the button into four players on a 9 10 6 flop isn't too smart), and if the game is tighter, maybe go up to 80%.

just estimates.

*shrug*

aseem

Props to Custom for having the stones to so easily admit to being wrong. I know very few people who have the kind of confidence and open-mindedness it takes to do that. Well done sir.

You mostly have to come out with a "lead bet" on the flop in higher limit games after you raised preflop. This depends on the texture of the flop, and the number of opponents in the hand. If the flop came KJ2, and you were last to act with four opponents, you should check.

In a small stakes game, with lots of callers playing a wide range of hands, it's far too likely that they will call you down with any piece of that flop. The chances that some, if not most, of your opponents hit this flop is overwhelming. You are definetly behind at this point.

However, you may want to bet here if the table is particularly passive.
The pot is large (10SB), and a bet here may buy you a free card on the turn. Depending on how many people come for the ride, and what card comes on the turn, you may want to take the free card.

Excellent post, aki. Thanks for taking the time to figure that out.