no hh. so Ill write it out

IM CO w/ 8s8c 6 handed, LAG table, usually raisers make the continuation bets and overplay their hands.

UTG limps, MP2 raises, I call, BB 3bets, UTG calls, Mp2 caps, we all call. (16.5 SB)

I call the first 2 cold because I have 2 players in the pot before me and 3 still to act, I figure I got decent odds. I call the 2nd two cold thinking the same but I dont know if It was a good call?

FLOP: QH 10S 4S

BB bets, UTG calls, MP1 calls, I call. (10.25BB - whatever the rake took)

I figure I have good implied odds to see a turn, am I right?

turn: 8h

bb bets, UTG calls MP1 calls, I raise, bb 3 bets, UTG folds, MP1 calls, I cap everyone calls. (23.25BB)


river: xs

bb checks, Mp1 checks, I bet, both call.

again i dunno about this, maybe i got greedy and couldve been c/r especially by the MP1 dude that seems to be playing off a flush draw. He checked pretty fast though so I thought it my set was good.

so there were 10 bets in the pot and u were more then likely drawin to 2 outs with no redraws and u want to know if u had implied odds?

Dude, you're getting 20-1 on the flop. You don't need implied odds, you had very close to what you needed right there.

1) You were getting almost 20-1. This is close enough to peel one off just because of the "Aw, fuck" factor. If the pot's huge and I've got a PP that is drawing live, I'll see a turn w/0 the correct odds because I'll want to kill myself if the card comes off.

2) Implied odds generally mean, however, that you have to have the best hand nearly EVERY time you make your draw. With the flush and straight draws out there, this is an incorrect call. Way too many cards can come that lead to you missing bets (or losing the pot) on the river, thereby killing your impled odds.

I would have definitely called that flop, though. "Aw fuck!"

Ice

Well put.

I don't like calling a capped preflop w/ 8-8. you gotta be thinking you are up against a higher pair at that point, will need to see an 8, and may likely need more than an 8. But you made the call... I think it is marginal at best, but OK.

On the flop, you have to be thinking that even if you hit your 8 on the turn, there are a number of potential redraws on the river that will kill you. ie any K-J could hit an A or a 9 for the straight, or any two spades has redraws to the flush.

You have just about the appropriate pot odds to make this call on the flop and do not technically need much in the way of implied odds, but with the number of hands still in the pot, you really should be more concerned about the reverse implied odds. Are you going to be putting in another bet on the turn if you miss... ??? What about the river? Or if you hit your 8 on the turn and a Spade Ace or a 9 comes on the river? It's another tough call in my opinion, and I might be folding here.

On the turn. OK, you hit your gin card. I can't see you playing it much differently there.

On the river, I dunno, I would honestly be worried about the check raise here. You've fired into this crowd on the turn, so I could easily see the flush checking to you expecting your bet. This would be a close call, and I might not make the value bet in this situation. Hard to say.

you should've threebet PF. other than that, yea I'd take taht peel too

three bet pf? isolating the UTG would be better than going in four handed then?

and what about the river bet? everyone seems iffy about it.

isolating PF is much better than going in 4 handed, you increase your chances of winning the hand by isolating utg, the river bet is fine, I eman seriously, you peel teh flop to try to hit your set on teh turn, since it is a realtive blank(yes, its a flush card, but there was real heavy action, so you only have to be right ther 1-~24times to be profitable, and I can garuntee you that you are good many more times than that

KDawg, may I ask a favor?

I'll assume you said yes, so I'll ask you a question:

Why is he better off isolating against 1 raiser, rather than trying to play a multi-way pot with a mid-pair?

I've learned through reading things like SSHE that middle and small pairs go up in value the more players in the pot. Why doesn't that apply here?

Since the culture of this forum sometimes leads to weird things happening, I want to make the following clear:

KDawg, I highly respect your posts. In fact, what you have posted here has helped get me into the black (I won't say I'm a winning player until it's held up over time). I just wish that sometimes you'd explain better.

no prob and no offense taken whatsoever. there's a couple of reasons actually. If we have a pair like 66,55,44, yadda yadda we want people to be in the pot as they won't hold up UI too often. Mid Pair like 77,88,99, and 1010 tend to get more favorable flops, so we can win in a shorthanded pot UI more often. We can also hit more straights with these mid pairs. By threebetting we are maximizing out chances to win teh pot UI, plus we gain fold equity. By doing the PF iso three bet we can take control fo teh pot. If high cards fall and they have a hand like 99,1010, even JJ we can make them fold the better hand since we played our hand PF so aggressively. also if they are just raising with High Cards we are able to raise out other opponents that would have high cards too so we now limit someone holding AK( for example) to hitting the flop only 37% of the time. we will also get tons of action if we hit a set on the flop and they hit their top pair. You don't want to think of the coinflip thought process becasue that only applies to those times when both hands go to the river and see a showdown, in limit many hands are won by the turn, so we are a bigger favorite than most would think. I hope that helps you. Just remember only three bet with a pair like 99,88,77,1010 when you are the next to raise the initial raiser. IF I say hold 1010 in teh CO and someone raises PF utg and we have a coldcaller or two, I am gonna just call and work from the flop

K, now I have a question. post flop play with these HU battles I kinda have a problem with. Say U do three bet in this loose table, and the original raiser calls, now the flop comes something like A, J, 5, two diamonds... now he checks and u make the bet, he just calls, what do you do the turn and river? I tend to be really agressive, but it doesnt quite work in these low limits (especially 6 max). I usually bet and have him call me down w/ kj or A8.. in other words, if the other dude shows no sign of agression what do you do? it might seem like a dumb question to you, but I think I might be acting too agressive w/ hands like 10 10 or 99 when it goes HU. and I might be losing a lot by doing so. thx.

Thank you for the explanation.