I watched the rerun of the tournament of champions on ESPN and thought what are the people thinking who picked these people.

Heres the table:
Doyle
TJ
Daniel
Howard Lederer
Phil Ivey
Phil Helmuth
Annie Duke
Chip Reese
Jonny Chan
Greg Raymer

I mean c'mon, I know Annie won but whats she doing there.
Raymer shouldn't be there.

Here would be my top 10 poker players: (not in that order)
1. Daniel
2. Doyle
3. TJ
4. Jonny
5. Phil Ivey
6. Phil Helmuth
7. Gus Hansen
8. Chip Reese
9. John Juanda
10. Howard Lederer

Almost:
11. Scotty Nyguen
12. Barry Greenstein

Well maybe, but only based on the fact that he won the WSOP main event, but Annie Duke definately should'nt be there

Keep in mind this is a freeroll sponsored by ESPN and Harrah's who put up $2 million for it. Given that they are not going to get the 10 best players, but rather the 10 best names in poker. Yes Annie does not belong in this class of players, as Phil said she was a 30 to 1 shot to win it, I would actually maybe go as far as 50 to 1, but SHE is a face of poker and on top of that she is a prominent female (always nice to appeal to the other sex).

i agree that annie duke shoyuldnt have been there,,but she is the most recognizable face of womans poker...ewwwww what a revolting thought...
i dislike her, but to her credit she won that damn thing, plus i believe she has a wsop braclet...so shes a pretty good player..even tho i dislike here ..had to say that again lol

I agree that annie shouldn't have been there, but espn had to get a woman on there for ratings. As for Raymer, i think he should have played in it. If they wouldn't have let Raymer in, it would have lessened the prestige of the WSOP Main Event. I mean, you win the the biggest tournament in the world, shouldn't that give a chance to play with big guys?

like annie or not she is still one of the better players in the world, i would not want her sitting at my table.

i think that tourny showed the world alot about raymer, if i could win every showdown w/ A high and spike an ace i could win too.( don't get me wrong he played his chipstack well, but he got lucky. like all wsop winners. ) raymer tried the same style at the tourny of champions and was shot down. it just goes to show that good smart play and experience pays off and luck only goes so far.

as far as phil saying annie is a 30 to 1 shot, if he would take his head out of his ass for a look at poker the way it is played now maybe he would be winning a little moe often.(that being said he is one of my favorite players.)

Gus Hansen is my favorite player to watch, but he's never won a WSOP bracelet. Enlighten me on how that makes him TOC candidate over Raymer??

they dont care about the skill of the poker being played. annie to appeal to sex. (annie is very good, but does not qualify to sit at that table)and raymer probably by contractual obligations(whoever wins 2005 wsop main event gets seat).i allways think of it like this(many pros have said this before). to be one of the best professional players in the world you need to sit at the "big game" ($2000-$8000 limits at the bellagio) and consistently win. i would say that only half of the people at the tournament of champions actually do that.

Had to get a woman for ratings? Please.

Daniel, the WSOP Player of the Year didn't even get an invite initially. He had to do his own lobbying. There were MANY players that should have been invited before Annie and it still would have been a GREAT event. Look at the Poker Superstars invitational tournamnet on Fox that is a three round + final round event. These guys paid $400K each to enter:

There were other Champions that could have been invited to the ESPN event that were not there...Jesus, Moneymaker...Juanda finished way up the leaderboard on the POTY standings and wasn't there. Heck, half the table hadn't even won the main event. I think the field was better on the Fox Poker Superstars Invitational and the format was better too going multiple rounds and building up advantages for the final round.

Quite honestly, the Championship Poker at the Plaza on Fox was some of the best tournament coverage I've seen...

First I watched the TOC again tonight (my third time seeing it).

I remember when the WSOP main event was over I definately wanted to see how Raymer would do against the best of the best. It turned out that he played pretty gosh darn poorly. Only in retrospect was that a bad decision.

There's no way I'd put the odds of Annie Duke at 50-1 either. That's just ridiculous to utter . Hopefully they will come up with a predetermined system to award the seats next year.

Raymer's play was a disappointment...he went all-in twice without being forced with 98o and T9o...it's like he lost interest or had an appointment he needed to get to. Just poor.

When any of you wins a WSOP bracelet you can decide that Annie Duke isn't good enough to play in a bloody made for TV freeroll.

She's better than 99% of players on the planet, she's not a particularly weak choice.

It's a WSOP related event and you're going to replace her with Gus who has no bracelets?

Good logic.

Raymer's play was a disappointment...he went all-in twice without being forced with 98o and T9o...it's like he lost interest or had an appointment he needed to get to. Just poor.


Where was Daniel when that happened?

Oh yeah, at home!

Hahaha. I think Raymer played fine, he plays an agressive game, and will sometimes get called when he moves all in on a play and look silly. Ussually he's busy looking silly with more chips than the caller.

I think they all played fine for a winner take all SnG.

dan harrington and jesus don't get a seat? men the master? i like lederer but what's he doing there, comparted o these guys.

no to mention ted forrest

the only thing to complain about really is that there was only one of these tournaments. they could cut that prize money to $200,000 and have 10 of theses with hand picked players. all the stars will want in because they become stars from being on tv. who ever heard of gus hansen without tv? i'd like to see moneymaker again. id like to see alex powers, phil laak, chipp jett, and so on. by hand picking the players, i don't have to watch some old retired navy guy or a college kid like i do on the wpt. i have nothing against the unknowns ,but it's more fun to watch a table full of people i'm familar with. espn would get higher ratings for a " weekly poker game" than for a weekly show about poker. it would be even better if they had a guest commentator like a hellmuth or lederer explaining the motives of the players. i love when these guys do that. i like norman chad, but hearing a pro analyze the action is so helpful. what does everyone think about something like this?

A lot of you are saying that Annie should be there because she was successful at the World Series, but if thats the case, where's Juanda? He did better than anyone except Daniel at the WSOP this year.

"Heck, half the table hadn't even won the main event. I think the field was better on the Fox Poker Superstars Invitational and the format was better too going multiple rounds and building up advantages for the final round."

I agree, the field was better on the Fox Poker Superstars. The only thing I dislike about the Fox Poker Superstars is the amount of rounds. I think it takes away from the players sense of urgency and doesn't show how players change their play throughout a tourney. I would have much rather had an open tournament with a 400,000 buy in. Say they had 30 people enter. It would be very interesting to see the type of play and the change of play throughout that tournament where 400,000 could possibly be lost on one hand.

Quite honestly, the Championship Poker at the Plaza on Fox was some of the best tournament coverage I've seen..."

I completely agree. I love watching tournaments, such as the main event at the WSOP and the Poker at the plaza, where they show play throughout the tournament and not just the final table. It gives the audience a much more comprehensive view of how to play tournament poker and in my opinion is much more interesting.

I agree, the field was better on the Fox Poker Superstars.


You might be right, it was kind of hard to tell during the 9 minutes of play squeezed into the 51 minutes of commercial airtime.

Maybe she shouldnt have been there...but her win proved she belongs among the top 25 players at least...I too have doubts whether or not shes top 10..but she is also very underrated

she is better then 99% but thats not good enough. the top 10 players make up probably the top .001% of poker players. i would put her easily in the top 50 players in the world. the top 50 players is equvalent to 1% i think. (if you can follow my logic. a little sloppy) and no way would i replace her for gus. i would replace her for chau giang. raymer, laugh. i wouldnt invite him to my weekly house games the way he played in the toc.

You make up ANY table of 10 players and people WILL disagree. So no matter who you make a case for someone will always get left out.
Daniel said that there is a difference between the play of the top 10-20 in the world, yet the top ones WILL consistently do well against the players below them.

Such is the case some of the players, like Chan and Chip, took some Bad Beats but those are two of the most feared players in the game, I mean listen to the interviews of others.

Any Hoo, someone also said the JJ had a better WSOP then anyone else except DN, such is NOT the case Mihn Nyguen took second in the player of the year standings. He wasn't even thought about.

I guess it all goes back to DN's latest CardPlayer article about "Asian Players" not getting any respecta.

I dunno who I would put at te table but I think ESPN and Harrahs did a good job of picking the table.

The top female player at the time, Harman had some health issues, the current World Champion, the best cash player ever (Chip), 3 fellers who have won 9 WSOp titles each, the player with the best month at the WSOP, probably the most winningest tourney player ever (TJ), one of the most feared players ever (Ivey), and Howard, one of the most respected and deppest thinkers in the game.

What about a two table Shootout, adding some of the players mention , JJ, Men Ngyuen, Mihn Ngyuen, Barry Greenstein, Gus, Harman, maybe the winner of the "Young Guns" tourney, Jesus (who has had the best WSOP finishes over the last 4 years, had there been a POTY award he would of won it twice), Ficshman or Williams for there WSOP sucess, the current Card Player of the Year (at the time it would of been Chip Jett), the current WPT champion (even though it is the WSOP could be cool, and the list could go on and on.

What do ya think

From what we have seen on TV, there are a lot of reasons to dislike different poker players. But what reasons can one have for disliking the lovable Annie Duke?


--cnm

Yeah cause he would probably beat ya. Raymer may have won a good amount of "Coin Flips" but he played great tournament poker overall @ the WSOP. Yeah some of his TOC play was quesionable, like the second time he called Duke with 98off. But he just didn't win the "coin flips" like he did at the WSOP. Had he done that he may have won the TOC event.

Raymer is a REGULAR in the 100/200 or 150/300 BEFORE he won the WSOP. He has got some skills, and he had a great week of poker to back up his agressive solid playing style.[/b]

she is better then 99% but thats not good enough. the top 10 players make up probably the top .001% of poker players. i would put her easily in the top 50 players in the world. the top 50 players is equvalent to 1% i think. (if you can follow my logic. a little sloppy) and no way would i replace her for gus. i would replace her for chau giang. raymer, laugh. i wouldnt invite him to my weekly house games the way he played in the toc.


Hi, it's a winner take all SnG.

He has to make some of the questionable plays. People are going all in and picking up the blinds CONSTANTLY in that sort of format. You're only seeing hands where flops are seen.

You're judging the guys play utterly out of context.

No one comments on DN paying off a nut flush or calling Brunson's all in with JTs.

Why? Neither is any better than Raymer calling when he thought he had two overcards.



Both of them played fine for the format.

You make up ANY table of 10 players and people WILL disagree. So no matter who you make a case for someone will always get left out.
Daniel said that there is a difference between the play of the top 10-20 in the world, yet the top ones WILL consistently do well against the players below them.

Such is the case some of the players, like Chan and Chip, took some Bad Beats but those are two of the most feared players in the game, I mean listen to the interviews of others.

Any Hoo, someone also said the JJ had a better WSOP then anyone else except DN, such is NOT the case Mihn Nyguen took second in the player of the year standings. He wasn't even thought about.

I guess it all goes back to DN's latest CardPlayer article about "Asian Players" not getting any respecta.

I dunno who I would put at te table but I think ESPN and Harrahs did a good job of picking the table.

The top female player at the time, Harman had some health issues, the current World Champion, the best cash player ever (Chip), 3 fellers who have won 9 WSOp titles each, the player with the best month at the WSOP, probably the most winningest tourney player ever (TJ), one of the most feared players ever (Ivey), and Howard, one of the most respected and deppest thinkers in the game.

What about a two table Shootout, adding some of the players mention , JJ, Men Ngyuen, Mihn Ngyuen, Barry Greenstein, Gus, Harman, maybe the winner of the "Young Guns" tourney, Jesus (who has had the best WSOP finishes over the last 4 years, had there been a POTY award he would of won it twice), Ficshman or Williams for there WSOP sucess, the current Card Player of the Year (at the time it would of been Chip Jett), the current WPT champion (even though it is the WSOP could be cool, and the list could go on and on.

What do ya think

What do ya think


I think one post was enough.

I think the selection was more than fine. Had they chosen anyone other players there still wouldve been complaining. Everyone played well considering the level of competition they were playing and both Raymer and Duke (the main players in question among this board) not only showed that their skills are worthy but they more importantly played with class. Oh yeah.....did someone say Lederer didnt belong? Ummmmmmm...........count them :shock: , 19 WSOP final tables I believe. That speaks for itself.

howard also made 5 final tables in this year's wsop, a good and frustrating year for him. He made more final tables than anyone else this year, not to also mention that he won the PLO tourny at bellagio in april, a major title in itself

I dont know how it got double posted, I wasnt even on the computer AFTER I made my second post on another topic.

Ah well.

"You might be right, it was kind of hard to tell during the 9 minutes of play squeezed into the 51 minutes of commercial airtime."

That's what TIVO is for. :wink:

Daniel Negreanu was not originally invited to the TOC, but who lost their seat so he could play?

this thread was WAY too long to read but did anyone mention the fact that the field was initally chosen by vote of players in this year's main event? anyone who played the main event was asked to vote for their top player(s) and this year's champ was automatic...

No, but Juanda would have been a nice choice...or Ferguson...