Im just curious how you all play pocket aces pre and post flop in a NL cash game, I know it all depends but what Im really asking is, how much do you bet, I have a tendency of raising 5 to 6 times the blinds(of course it depends on how much people at the table are willing to call pre-flop, but this amount tends to thin the field between me and 1 or 2 other players in the game I play. I tend to raise this amount, unless there are alot of limpers, in which case I increase the raise by around 1 bb for every limper.

Now, post flop, how much do you bet? I usually bet about the size of the pot when its headsup and half to 2/3rds when its 3 way. 3x my original raise when its multiway. This of course depends on how scarey the board is and isnt a hard and fast rule for me. My main concern is that I may be overbetting so that people call with pocket pairs hoping to set knowing how much they can exploit me for post flop since I make a large continuation bet.

$50 says you'd make more money just going all in with them pre-flop every time.

ok, well then how do you play kings?

ok, well then how do you play kings?

The same way.

DO NOT get into the habit of making your standard bet unstandard. That is, if you're playing in a solid NL game, don't raise differently depending on your hand.

I usually play s/h NL games, and I raise to 4x on every raising hand regardless of the hand. Depending on the players at my table, I'll raise more or less in/out of position. But this is usually in the more extreme circumstances, when I'm against a maniac of an ultra-tight fool.

You're asking the wrong question! If you want to know how to play Aces, think about how most people play most hands. Think how you can extract maximum value against an average hand. What hands will pay you off? What hands might reraise you preflop? What hands might call preflop? How are you usually perceived at the table??

It's not an issue of "do I raise more?" or "do I raise less?" It's an issue of "what does my raise do, and why?"

Ice

No, really.

All in pre-flop.

AA are a huge pain in the ass to play postflop in NL.

You'll get called preflop a lot more than you'd imagine and it's impossible to make any mistakes postflop.

Why make something very smple hard?

moving in preflop out of the blue is stupid unless you have 20xbb or less in a 100bb+ game.

Maximum value against an average hand? I dont want to go up against multiple average hands, the raise is intended to thin the field so that hopefully the aces can hold up against one or two callers. I think the question is a valid one about the size of your bets both post flop and pre-flop. How do you play them post flop? Dont give me it depends, an un co-ordinated board flops, your against two other players, youve made your standard 4bb raise, how much do you bet?

moving in preflop out of the blue is stupid unless you have 20xbb or less in a 100bb+ game.


Of course it isn't, unless you never get called and no one ever raises in front of you.

When you find that game, let me know so I can avoid playing in it.

Otherwise, the more xBB you have, the better a play it is.

show me the numbers to back it up then.

show me the numbers to back it up then.


To back what up?

That getting all the money in with the best hand is good?

Explain to me how you think you'd have better RoI playing it any other way.

In my game- a standard s/h game where I have relatively solid reads against the players involved- if I raise 3x before the flop and I get two callers, and "an un co-ordinated board flops." I will usually double my preflop bet, depending on how many hands I've been raising lately and how likely I think it is that my opponents will play back at me or call with a marginal hand.

This is usually mathematically incorrect... I like to bet less than is appropriate to shut out certain draws. I'm good. I can fold when people make their hands, etc.

Ice

Raising all-in preflop with AA is just silly if you're even mildly skilled. If you're not, it's fine.... but it's better to just make a standard raise and learn how the heck to play post-flop. Don't be an arse and teach people how NOT to play solid profitable poker.

You know better than that.

Ice

explain to me how you think you're going to make it more profitable than actually playing the hand well post flop.

yep, I just got in the habbit of doing this, there will be times when people fold, BUT eventually you will get called and win. The only problem with this is that when you do get called and win, you have to leave the table; if not you have to convince the table that you wont do that again.

here are my recent results (that I can remember) with Aces:

times that Ive gone all-in and been called preflop 3. money made $150

times that Ive played it normal about 3,

1st- I raised $2 ( blinds .25/.50) got 3 callers, flop comes k,x,4 I bet the pot raise get reraised and I re-reraise, he calls, turn comes x I bet he pushes I call he has a set of 4s I catch a set on the river and get lucky.

2nd- flop comes QJx I bet the pot a dude calls trun comes 10 I push ( my stack was the pot size) lose to AK

3rd- I raise get 5 callers ..YES 5!... flop comes 774..good flop right? no.. I lose to A7 sooted.

Id recommend pushing. it works, ( I wouldnt recommend ks pushing though, by not pushing preflop you'll learn how to pay aces when you move up limits)

oh, and PS.. like the old avatar better smash.

Only works in lower games unless youre playing with rich fish throwing cash around unless there are a few key situations. Your in late position and everyone limps, pushing looks like a steal, someone with 10s or better soemtimes calls hoping your going with AK. Limping in early at a table where raises pre are the norm then pushing.

With kings I think its a bonehead move, youll usually only get called by aces, sometimes worse, not usually.

so can anyone answer my question?

Hey pal.... I am really trying to answer it.

Ice

explain to me how you think you're going to make it more profitable than actually playing the hand well post flop.


You *can't* play the hand well postflop.

No one can. No visability.

You're going to pay off hands that flop big that you offered correct odds to call pre-flop and you're going to let people outplay you a lot, possibly completely by mistake. When the flop comes J37 rainbow and they push, what do you do?

Learn how to play kings?!?!?!

come on, can someone just talk about bet sizes. I play in a bigger game than .25-.5

what position am I in, did they limp in in EP, MP, LP, or were they in the blinds and called. How much is in the pot and how much is it call. There are so many factors that your little exercise is stupid.

You've lost your mind.

I'm serious this time. This is INEXCUSABLE! How the hell can you play ANY hand well postflop? You take what you know about a player, you put him/her on a reasonable range of hands, you do the math, and you decide whether to call or not.

I think this is really irresponsible advice. I agree with you sometimes, I disagree with you sometimes, but this time... come on man; this is horrible. Respect a fellow writer's incorrect use of the semicolon and engage me respectfully in this debate.

Ice

so do I, it depends

Yeah, so this is degrading into a stupid ass debate. Thanks for the help fellas

Hey. Read my posts, man... I gave you good (well, alright at least) answers that were pretty specific.

Respond to that, and someone might help you.

Ice

because in low limit (or live, mid-stakes) NL games, people call a preflop raise w/ anything. furthermore there is no logic to there game, SOO you will often make wrong calls/bets in these games without knowing it. say you raise AA 4xbb and get 3 callers, the flop comes KH,9D,10D. you bet the pot and get raised all in, can you let it go? what if you're on the button and the UTG pushes immediately after the flop? sure, you CAN fold aces, BUT not only is it hard to get away from them, If you ARE in fact folding them you would make more by just pushing and doubling up 1/4th of the time.

I did this in a live game and got called for $400 by 2 people!, people always call all-in w/ jj and even AK.. they see it on T.V. so they do it.

an un co-ordinated board flops, youre against two other players, youve made your standard 4bb raise and its checked to you. How much do you bet. This is specific scenario, how do you play it depending on this scenario.

No you didnt, you didnt give any post flop play help. You gave me some Zen ass budhist rhetorical question shit.

3/4-pot sized bet *depending* on if they called out of the blinds or if they limp called preflop.

You've lost your mind.

I'm serious this time. This is INEXCUSABLE! How the hell can you play ANY hand well postflop? You take what you know about a player, you put him/her on a reasonable range of hands, you do the math, and you decide whether to call or not.

I think this is really irresponsible advice. I agree with you sometimes, I disagree with you sometimes, but this time... come on man; this is horrible. Respect a fellow writer's incorrect use of the semicolon and engage me respectfully in this debate.

What you guys don't seem to get is that NL is about visability. You want to see flops with hands that allow you to make clear decisions. If you're playing in a game where pre-flop all ins get called, even occasionally, you're making more money just pushing with aces.

Postflop in NL, much like PLO, you want to be holding or drawing to nut hands. While AA will flop the nuts occasionally, you're ussually looking at drawing to two outs or being way ahead on the flop and having no way to tell which.

The same is much less true of most other hands. It's a lot easier to make good decisions postflop with other hands.

I'd chalange you to play 5000 hands just pushing all in with AA and compare your earn with 5000 hands played how you play them now and see which does better.

When your method outpreforms just pushing your stack in, let me know.

This is my advice, 21gambit.

What do you think of it? respond, and then I will respond to you! See how conversations work??

Ice

This is my advice, 21gambit.

What do you think of it? respond, and then I will respond to you! See how conversations work??

Ice

Yeah, wow, neato. Didnt see that post actually. You seem to be talking about live play, I am talking about online play.

I'm good. I can fold when people make their hands, etc.

When they don't do.

See my point about being outplayed.

I agree, mainly though, if a person w/ KQ hits his K and pushes, you are being outplayed and not know it. Its just too hard to get away from aces, thus the term " win small, lose big"

Jeez, when I get a million hands under my belt, I might be able to do this.

Look, I understand the thought behind what you're advocating. It even makes a small degree of sense. But you lose me on the analogy when you start comparing hold'em and omaha.

Yeah, of course you always want to be drawing to the nut hand. That's pretty much always true. But in Hold'em, most people make their money by making better decisions- even just MARGINALLY better decisions- in the marginal situations. In PLO, having a draw to the nut hand is so much MORE important because the nut hand will be the best hand so much more often.

In Hold'Em, it seems like if you can get the money in with a significant- yet not bulletproof- edge a LOT more often than your opponent, well, sheesh.... you're slaughtering people!

Look, I'm just bothered by the suggestion that postflop play with premium hands is unnecessary to winning poker.

I've got more to say, but I'd like to break this up.... don't condescend me anymore.

Ice

Nope. I play so much more online than live. Shorthanded no limit texas holdem games.

Ice

Do as I say and not as I do.

Basically, riddle me this, am I over betting my aces post flop?

on another note, how do you "read" people online?

Look, I'm just bothered by the suggestion that postflop play with premium hands is unnecessary to winning poker.

Well, there's money and there's ego.

I'll take money.

/shrug.

All I'm saying is that most people, not nessicarily you, but most people who don't push all in with aces in a game where it's even vaguely likely they might get called are playing the way they do because they are convinced they can outplay everyone postflop, ignoring the fact that the very anture of overpairs makes that virtually impossible.

The only reason *not* to go all in with aces is if the move will nearly never get action.

I guess I just think these are the decisions that separate a good player from a bad one.

How likely is he to push with a King? How likely is he to be on a draw? How likely is he to be pushing with a set?

Do the math, make the read, make the call. it's not revolutionary. It's what separates me (solid, uncreative, hardly-winning player) from my badass friends (pattern-recognition savants that make sickass A-hi call downs that devastate people and who win more money than I can see even in my dreams)

I just think it's silly to suggest playing AA postflop is impossible or unprofitable.

Ice

yes, a big bet is kinda wierd dont you think? now, a huge bet (all-in) is too wierd, which is why you get called!

you see, fish thinks:

"wtf? well, obviously he wouldnt play aces like that and risk not winning anything, hes prolly trying to protect a mid pair or would rather see all 5 cards w/ his AK.. MY J'S ARE GOOD!!!"

I just think it's silly to suggest playing AA postflop is impossible or unprofitable.


I think it's silly that you have no idea if you making any more money by playing them postflop than by just going all in.

Of course you'll still make money playing them postflop. Will you make more, though? I tend to think not. Particularly shorthanded.

Im certain it is profitable, a friend of mine pushed with them in a 2-5 500 max buy 300 min game to a 50 dollar raise, 3 people called and the guy who raised showed him kings and folded. Aces vs 10s, 9s and Jacks, a quick grand was made. Saturday nights at the local harrahs are the place to be if youve got the bankroll for it.

amen

I'm not that great a player. Hell, I'm not that good a player. But I know that I have a HUGE preflop equity edge of bad players, and a solid post-flop equity edge over most solid players.

I usually play 100 s/h NL games. Moving in preflop is just wasteful! If I can get the money in and reasonably expect to get called, I will. If I make a standard raise and get reraised (shrug) sure! Why get fancy! But that's not the question.

I have this silly feeling you're going to say that you're advocating open-moving when there are better strategies. Am I wrong??

Ice

If I can get the money in reasonably, I do. I don't limp with them. I don't raise-call with them... I'm uber-aggressive with them.

But there's no reason to move with them when there's no reason you should expect to get called by anything but KK

Ice

You already knew the answer? Then WHY DID YOU ASK THE QUESTION???????

Ice

I have this silly feeling you're going to say that you're advocating open-moving when there are better strategies. Am I wrong??

I'm saying you have no idea if there *are* betterstrategies.

Try it out for a few thousand hands each and compare.

If you're making more money seeing flops, let me know.

LOOK, its not unprofitable, in low limit holdem (or wild live games) though, it is more profitable to push! I've had my fair share of sick A high calls, and I think I can recognize patterns fairly well (obviously not at pro level, but I can hold my own against an obvious bluff). The thing is that even your friends, who probably play High limit games where there is logic to every move, cant play Aces with as much success in low limit games. Why? because it is way too hard to notice the difference between top set and TPTK, fish push to a raise regardless. this is why either you will win a tiny pot ( you raise the flop everyone folds) or you will lose a big pot ( you raise the pot, get pushed all in by K7 that flopped two pair).

I posted my results previously, in neither do I think I missplayed the hand, yet I lost in most of them. When I pushed, it was folded maybe 2/3s of the time and called 1/3.. so, it was profitable.

But there's no reason to move with them when there's no reason you should expect to get called by anything but KK

You must either play in diffrent 100 max SH games than me, or haven't tried moving in pre-flop very much.

I've been called with AK, AQ, KK-77 etc. Even JTs.

In certain situations! not my game online. Jesus, calm down. I didnt ask that question, I asked about bet sizes.

This is in the face of a big raise, come on now, dont get so defensive.