should i reraise this river? he is representing (IMO) two pair, like 2J, 6J, 9J or some kind of backdoor straight. i doubt he would slowplay anything, given my initial read.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with J:heart:, 9:diamond:.
[color:#666666]3 folds[/color], Hero checks.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 2:spade:, 6:club:, 9:heart: [color:#0000FF](4 players)[/color]
[color:#CC3333]Hero bets[/color], MP1 calls, MP3 folds, Button calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) T:club: [color:#0000FF](3 players)[/color]
[color:#CC3333]Hero bets[/color], MP1 folds, Button calls.

River: (5.75 BB) J:spade: [color:#0000FF](2 players)[/color]
[color:#CC3333]Hero bets[/color], Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.75 BB


p.s. look at that flop again. what a call! on the turn too its a shit call but whatever that's how things have been going lately and this guy was clearly giving his money away... i just couldn't take it

3bet the river

Pretty easy threebet. Your only serious worries at JT and KQ. I don't think he's got either of those.

sorry, meant to post results. they shouldn't change people's answers, since his cards are so stupid that he clearly has his head up his butt. i didn't have this read on him since i was only at the table for 8 hands or so before this, so people should assume what i was assuming, which was that he was a normal player.

he had 8Q, for the runner-runner gutshot but obviously that wasn't a consideration

It was a good thing you didn't post results right away.

Trust me on this.


Guess you were right to trust him waking up out of nowhere as a bad sign.

sucks you got rivered

three bet it next time please.

Pretty easy threebet. Your only serious worries at JT and KQ

78, 22, 66, 99.

I really wish people would stop advising people to three-bet rivers with two pair on boards like this.

It's assanine.

Betting or raising a river for value is one thing, three-betting this is near brain-dead.

What's raising that you beat *2/3 of the time* ?

Man that sucks. Was he suited or something? Even then that was a very loose call by him on the flop. But he did luck out on the turn by having a double gutshot for some weak straights (either a 7 or J would give him the straight).

Two pair is a hand I've had a problem with on the river. I usually will raise once with it, but I very rarely 3-bet it. Is that a big leak?

So Smash, on what type of boards would you 3-bet the river with two pair? Yea I know thats a really open ended question but I thought I would ask anyways. And is your comment about the board in the hand because there is 3 to a straight out there?

22, 66, and 99 are not happening here.

that being said you still might no be ahead 2/3 of the time.

but dont factor in hands that are hardly ever happening here.

Hi.

22 66 and 99 plat exactly like this.

Why are they waiting until the river?

3 betting the river with a non-top two pair is usually not +EV unless you're up against a maniac, and a maniac throws crazy raises on the flop and turn. Smash is right, theres no point attacking it that hard with that many ddraws out there.

I never respond to your post because of those annoying tags and number thingies. I try but it makes my eyes hurt and brain shudder.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with J:heart:, 9:diamond:.
3 folds, Hero checks.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 2:spade:, 6:club:, 9:heart: (4 players)
Hero bets, MP1 calls, MP3 folds, Button calls.

Turn: (3.75 BB) T:club: (3 players)
Hero bets, MP1 folds, Button calls.

River: (5.75 BB) J:spade: (2 players)
Hero bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.75 BB

Why are they waiting until the river?

Because there's more money in it?

Why would they raise the turn heads up when you could be betting iinto with junk and they're in position?

I completely agree. Being agressive is one thing....smart tailored aggression is another. Three betting this sucks.

Im surprised you guys are asking why he would wait to raise the river, when its one of the most basic lines somebody can take.

You have a strong hand, your opponent has a weaker hand than yours...and hes betting into you. If u raise the turn, he's liable to fold. So you call, call, raise. While a turn raise allows him to get away from his hand easier, a river raise does not.

Over aggressiveness is something I have been arguing about on 2+2 for awhile. Its usually why the only forum on 2+2 I read is the mid-high stakes threads. Much better advice is given there, probably because of their experience.

damn. lately i've been agreeing with smash way too often.

didn't notice the guy actually had a double gutshot on the turn, so that makes his call a bit more reasonable. he wasn't suited or anything, the call on the flop was "assanine."

i think you don't 3-bet this river for several reasons. mainly, there are very few hands i am beating, and given that this is 2/4, he is likely slow-playing, meaning i'll get reraised.
so a 3-bet opens myself up to a cap, and also contributes to the rake. i have to be winning well over 50% (smash said 2/3 - don't know where he got this, but it actually seems a little low IMO) for a reraise to be profitable.

in answer to the other poster, if you have a set, i think you consider a 3-bet depending on how high it is and your opponent. he could only have hit a gutshot straight , runner-runner straight or slowplayed something, so you can make your decision based on that.
3-betting out of position is a poor EV play, for 3 reasons.

1. you are contributing to the rake. if it is heads-up you are raising $4 to win $3.20.
2. you give him the opportunity to reraise. if he has hit a hand here, it is likely a straight. given my betting, the best hand i could have is the low straight, so i open myself to getting reraised.
3. if he reraises, i do not have the opportunity to reraise. this is a problem when you are leading the betting out of position. if we both make strong hands, he has the last decision. if he is a crazy player, or i have the nuts, i want to have the opportunity to reraise him if he reraises me. since i am out of position i do not have this option.

thanks to the posters. i didn't 3-bet and pretty much never would. i asked the question since the river made me 2 pair also, and so i was beating several of the hands he could have, which is unusual since usually if i am betting out i'm not looking to have my hand improved. also many of the players on this forum i respect have promoted being more aggressive late in hands than i tend to be.

cheers!
daniel

Smash, quick question.

How long did it take u to hit 1000 on your PS project?

Im doing something like that myself. (I usually play 15/30 and up). Thought I would give it a try myself.

I would generally call that river. funny thing is I felt goofball had an overcard or two and a gut shot draw on the turn.

But if I feel right about the player I can reraise those rivers.

Hey DKE_120 Thank you very much for reposting the hand....very coool :-)

Are you saying you dont raise on questionable rivers because of a rake?



I do what i can..... just change the :# to =#

I looked at this post and I was like:







Rake is one of the last things Im thinking about when deciding if I should be re-raising this hand.

Hi.

No they don't.

Smash, quick question.

How long did it take u to hit 1000 on your PS project?

About 5 hours.

Oh wait that was the ultra soft Party 5/10 game tonight.

Um...couple of months I'd say. 40 sessions or so.

Good point. They can still slowplay the turn as a trap since they are either way ahead with a set or crushed by your turned straight.

man, everytime there is one of these arguments, you are on the weak/tight end of it. i dont know if its just because you are agreeing with smash, or you really play this way, but it has to stop.

as wrto pointed out in another post, stop thinking about hands that beat you and start thinking about hands you beat.

22, 66, and 99 do not play this hand enough nearly often enough to be scared of them like you are.

the only thing that should scare you is how many bets you are missing by playing so scared.

I was acknowledging Smash's counter to my point (that JT and KQ are the only worries). I still think it's a three bet, but I would not have considered the sets before. I don't think the sets Smash mentioned are likely, but I can acknowledge they are possible.

Thanks for flaming me anyway though.

[quote="Absolute"][quote="cdddc75"][quote=Smasharoo]Why are they waiting until the river?

man, everytime there is one of these arguments, you are on the weak/tight end of it. i dont know if its just because you are agreeing with smash, or you really play this way, but it has to stop.

as wrto pointed out in another post, stop thinking about hands that beat you and start thinking about hands you beat..[/quote]

You mean, the ones you beat that raise u on the end? I see more hands then u listed beating me here. There are a ton of gutshot hands out there, KQ is could be out there, JT...etc. Some of these hands are not liable to make it to the turn. I havent played 2/4 in a while, but I remember ppl love to chase anything in those game.

This play could be consistent with a thinking players line of trying to get the most money out of u...the call/call/raise line. But I find it even more consistent with a made gutshot.

3-betting this is a joke. You call it weak-tight, I call it being smart with agression, not misapplying it.

This again is also why I try to stay away from 2+2s small stakes threads for the most part. The amount of misapplied aggression advocated reeks.

stick with the mid-high stakes threads to really improve your game.

Although I do post hands to see what they say in those threads...its always intresting to see someone tell u to re-raise or call down when its obvious you are beat. Im not weak tight in anyway what-so-ever...but consistently calling down or re-raising with the 3rd-2nd best hands will put more swings in your game over the long run.

(actually, my friend who plays 150/300 for a living, was the first to tell me to stay away from most poker forums, for the sake of bad advice being advocated that will ruin your game. I was less inclined to believe him, but he said they are good to getting u to a certain point, but once u hit that point, u outgrow most of the crap they have to say...he was right.)

So to u I say, get better at reading hands...get better at tossing the worst hand, or just calling with it and not re-rasing into a better one.

This again is also why I try to stay away from 2+2s small stakes threads for the most part. The amount of misapplied aggression advocated reeks.


This is exactly right.

Everyone goes through a stage of thiking rasing is always the answer before they refine their postflop play.

People start loose passive, most become tight passive, then loose agressive, then tight and too agrssive postflop, and finnaly tight and selectively agressive.

Some people get stuck at various stages.

Whatver stage they're at, is of course the perfect optimal lay strategy and canot be argued with.

Ego and all.

How far are you considering small-stakes on the 2+2 threads? I've gotten a lot of help actually "refining" my 5/10 game over there, there are points where I disagree with them on aggression, and other points where spots that I wasn't aggresive I should have been... At the Lower limits You do hold a valid point, sometimes they treat donk raises with less respect than is warranted, as donk's dont raise much.

Maybe they just know something you don't.
Acutally, I am sure that is the case.

Maybe they just know something you don't.
Acutally, I am sure that is the case.


No.

There are posters on 2+2 who know more than I do, or most people on the planet.

The vast majority however have no idea what they're doing and just mill about together waiting for a consesus to start to emerge and then jumping on whatever bandwagon applies.

You know how that is.

I have never claimed to know more about SSHE than you. I am actually quite sure I do not.

That being said, I do believe that there have been situatiosn recently where I was correct and you were not.

Part of learning the game is soakin in as much as you can from other sources, which is what I am tryin to do. Memorize optimal lines against every sort of opponent, and make your lines in those situations consistent.

So yes, I resort to players who know more than me for guidance and advice.

What I don't do is go out of my way to be the guy who opposes the general consensus and then flame everyone in his path who disagrees with him. Being "that guy" is no better than being on the bandwagon. It is just as petty and transparent.

You know how that is.

What I don't do is go out of my way to be the guy who opposes the general consensus and then flame everyone in his path who disagrees with him.


No you ar the great defender of the faith.

without really understanding why.

That's much worse.

I'm an arrogant fuck who belittles people I disagree with out of some sort of sado-insecurity that brings me joy to make fun of other people.

I know this. It's an online persona. In person I'm really quite a nice guy.

I do not, let me repeat, do not take any of this very seriously. On occasion I make a case for a play I wouldn't actually make if I think people don't understand why a correct play is correct to push people to understand why they do things. Doing without knowing why is worthless. Learning to understand the reasons behind why a play is right is much more important.

It's not by mistake that I push people to explain why they think something is right.

Much as you'd like to think I'm just an ass who likes fucking with people, there's a reason I do it.

You'll end up a better player from arhuing with me. You might not realize it for a while though.

thats a good post.

and i do think the last part is true.

First, Im taking this all light hearted.

Okay...first, I said I stay away from the threads for the most part, because while a little more than half of their advice is solid, its the other 30-40 percent I have problems with. You start at a point where the the SS thread will really really help u out and get to a point where u start to see errors in what they are reccommending. Like someone being weak tight, but the reverse with over-agression.

You may enjoy your little petty flame wars, I just popped on to tell u that your river 3-bet sucks and u are hurting the new posters just starting out by advocating a retarded move. I could care less if u throw money away betting into defeat, I care more about others starting out. If I was new and read that, I wouldnt know if that move was wrong and may have utilized it.

Jason's point is kind of where I was getting at. It helps to a point but then u realize there are situations where they should be respecting bets and raises instead of calling down/re-raising.

Thats why I stick to the mid-high limit threads. very few in the SS threads know more than I do. GuyonTilt and Bakku are actually the reason I still popp on down there, they know what they are talking about.

Now the mid-high limit ppl, is more my bread and butter, I find more advice that fits and more challenges to be found up there.

You river 3-bet still sucks though. Flame on if u want.

PS. I just read the recent responses, and what Smash was saying, about arguing to get u guys to learn, was always pretty obvious from the start. you guys take offense way to easy and dont seem to want to budge on something that is obviously wrong.

And I hope most of your friends on 2+2 would say the same, Im sure half of them would, but maybe not.

3-betting is bad. There's not enough hands we beat.

3-betting is bad. There's not enough hands we beat


Stop being so weak tight.

I's sickening.

i knew it was coming

i knew it was coming


Yeah it was pretty facile.

Been playing a fair amount of Party 5/10 six max haven't seen you arund, did you stop playing at Party?

I play everyone once in a while at party. I have a new SN, but most of my play is at a different site.

FeltMyNutz, come sit down if you see me.

FeltMyNutz, come sit down if you see me.


Nah, I look for games with *bad* players. I don't want your money, it's too hard to get.

Besides, I'd be tempted to chat and that would blow my whole annonimity thing and I'd have to explain plays I make that I don't post about much.