I play S & G's on Party almost every day, and have been tremendously successful until the past few days... I don't know if I've just become way too impatient, or maybe I'm just thinking at a level far too ahead of most of my opponents...I'm thinking about dumbing down my play; as it seems that most players can't appreciate higher level thinking...

For example, check out this hand...

In my opinion, it was an absolutely brilliant play by me, and should net me a few hundred chips 99% of the time...

One of the first hands of the game...



NL Hold'em $200 Buy-in + $15 Entry Fee Trny:12964760 Level:1 Blinds(10/15) - Friday, June 10, 02:20:09 EDT 2005
Table Table 17029 (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Total number of players : 10
Seat 1: R_Bannon ( $1015 )
Seat 2: NUTZREALBIG ( $960 )
Seat 4: syllygirl ( $985 )
Seat 5: tufcall ( $1000 )
Seat 6: tkelan1 ( $1000 )
Seat 10: PokerHooker_ ( $970 )
Seat 3: Me ( $985 )
Seat 8: WCMD29 ( $1037 )
Seat 7: MagicPig ( $1363 )
Seat 9: metwo ( $685 )
Trny:12964760 Level:1
Blinds(10/15)
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to ME[ Qs 3d ]
tufcall folds.
tkelan1 folds.
MagicPig folds.
WCMD29 calls [15].
metwo folds.
PokerHooker_ folds.
R_Bannon folds.
NUTZREALBIG folds.
I call [5].
syllygirl checks.
** Dealing Flop ** [ 2s, 7s, 2d ]
I check.
syllygirl bets [100].
WCMD29 folds.
Your time bank will become active in less than 20 seconds. If you do not want it to be used, please act now.
I raise [250].
syllygirl calls [150].
** Dealing Turn ** [ 6s ]
I go all-In [720]
syllygirl is all-In [720]
** Dealing River ** [ Jd ]
I show [ Qs, 3d ] a pair of twos.
syllygirl shows [ 7c, 9h ] two pairs, sevens and twos.
syllygirl wins 1985 chips from the main pot with two pairs, sevens and twos.


As you can see, I was in the small blind...Big blind ridiculously overbet the pot (100 into a 45 pot), and essentially gave away the value of her hand (7, but no 2 or flush draw)...I check-raised her (forced her to believe that I had her beat with at least a 7 with a bigger kicker, but most likely trip 2's or a flush draw...When the spade hit on the turn, I completed my 2-part bluff by pushing all-in...I honestly find it UNBELIEVABLE that she called with her weak 7 after the way I played this pot...

I like to consider myself a great thinker, and a force to be reckoned with at the table. I generally play tight/aggressive, but I do make these types of plays occassionally...partly to keep my opponents guessing, but mostly because I know the value of my opponents' hands and realize that I shouldn't necessarily need the hand to win the pot, as long as I represent a stronger hand effectively...

I'm thinking about eliminating such plays out of my game, however, as many players apparently have poor pattern recognition skills, and essentially call regardless...

Do any of you other professional S & G players attempt such plays, or have you just given up trying such advanced moves?

It was a very good play. Actually a terrible call by other player. Its tough to know how the people will play a few hands in so I tend to use this kind of move after the button goes around the table once or twice. It was a very good bet so don't be discouraged. Good luck

I noticed that this was a $215 SNG. Have you played against this player in the past? I'm wondering if she had a read on you.

Based on the high $ level of he SNG, I would normally give my opponents more credit for their play. I think that most players fold on the turn or even on the flop once you've reraised them.

But your play is very aggressive. First, you limp with Q3o even though it's only another $5; I wouldn't play that. Then with nothing, you try to take down the pot on a stone cold bluff. Well, sometimes you get called and it only takes one player to call you to kick you out of the tournament when your stacks are even.

On Bodog (another site), a lot of players in tournaments go all-in with junk like you did. In general, there is less respect given for pushing these days IMHO.

You have NO IDEA what she has and it's early in the SNG.

Bad move, IMO. I don't play 200+15 SNGs, but I don't see why stone cold bluffing at Level I for 145 chips is a good idea. As this hand shows, the downside is much larger than the upside.

It's far, far easier to take chips from bad players when you have a hand than when you have nothing.

I agree.

I come no where close to playing that high of levels.

But, I think at this stage in the sng, you are risking a lot to win almost nothing, this is a nothing pot. AS Doyle says in supersystem, don't lose all your chips in a nothing pot.

This play would make sense if the blinds were higher, I think. But, at this level, if you succeed, you win a little, if you don't, you lose it all. Doesn't seem like a good idea to me.

It also seems maybe you don't have to dumb yourself down. She perhaps put you on putting her on a bad hand, therefore putting you on a bluff of her hand. Although, I don't like her call either at this stage.

I could be wrong since I don't play this high of sng's, but that's just my opinion.

The former, by all appearances. From the example you posted, you decided to risk all your chips on a small pot early in an SNG, for no especially good reason. If this is in any way typical of your play, then your opponents will eventually notice (either through direct experience, or via the magic of PokerTracker) and treat your early bluffs as a chance to double up with a slightly-better-than-crap hand. Making so many moves you beat yourself is a symptom of fancy play syndrome, and best avoided.

Saying I had no idea what she had is entirely untrue.

There was only one reason why she would choose to bet 100 into a 45 pot, and that was because she had the 7 and wanted to take the pot down right there. She didn't want any overs to show and didn't want a flush to hit. She also was hoping that no one had a 2.

I was in the small blind, so it was likely that I had a 2, especially seeing that I check raised her when the board paired 2's. When the turn came a third spade, and I pushed, there was virtually no way she should be ahead. What hands would I possibly check-raise her with after that flop? Her 7 should be no good against another 7, and she still had to strongly fear that I had a 2 or a flush draw. Even if she was absolutely correct and assumed I was on a stone cold bluff for all my chips on the 2nd hand of the game, she still had to dodge another spade or an over to take down the pot.

Oh, and poker tracker wouldn't help her decide something here. I rarely make plays anywhere near that aggressive, and I'm almost never in a pot with a weak hand. The ONLY reason I was here was because I was in the SB at the 10/15 stage, and you should NEVER fold for 5 chips.

Oh, and also, this play should have given me an extra 280 chips, which is quite a significant increase...

Looking back, I found out that she is only a 28% S & G player. Maybe I should have just chosen my bait better...

Fair enough. You had a good idea of the range of hands she had. Just a terrible idea of how she would reply to your bluff.



Fish know no bankroll limits. Besides, how can she give you credit for a third two AND a flush. Not possible. All this assumes she was thinking about the hand beyond level one anyway...



She could have thought you were check/raising her with crap as a bluff and just followed through with your bluff. Who knows what she was thinking? Are we trying to improve her play or your play here?




You only get an extra 280 chips if she folds to the second (and final) bullet you fire. Is it worth risking your tournament life for 280 chips on a stone cold bluff? If so, don't ask us for advice. You already have the answer you need.

If you're as good at SNGs as you say you are (I have no reason to disbelieve you), why make these risky plays when the downside is so much greater than the upside? Seems like a desperate ploy to me...

Heres how I see it. You're read on her was good. But it wasnt flawless. You didn't leave yourself options. Lets look at the hand.

You checked the flop and she overbet the pot. You then decide to take a stab at the pot by by raising 150. She then calls your raise. At this point I'm weighing my options. My steal didn't work. She called my raise. The pot is 595. If I were you I would probably give up right here, but the turn comes a spade. This is a good card for you. You can now think about taking another stab at the pot. If you're up against a thinking player, you have a good shot of taking this down. Now what kind of bet should I make. If you made the flush you wouldn't push all in because you want to get some value from this hand. A bet of half the pot is a good sized bet and puts her in a tough decision w/o risking all your chips and you still have a shot at winning the hand on the river. You look like you want a call. When you push on the turn it looks like your bluff didn't work and this is your last chance to take the pot down and when you make a bet like this you are only going to get called by a hand that has you beat.

I would have leaned more to checking the turn and hoping for a free card. If she bets out half the pot or less, you are then getting the right odds to call. I still probably fold as it is close and its early in the tournament. I can save these chips and use them when I'm in a much better position. There were many options for this hand and yours wasn't horrible. You went with your read but you didn't really think about how she would read you. You can't just play the other players. You have to take a look at how the other players see your play.

[quote="dead money"] You can't just play the other players. You have to take a look at how the other players see your play.[/quote]

Missed this quote before. You're thinking way too highly of yourself.

LOL... I read past that quote as well.

I think it essentially came down to this:

The op had the right read of the opponents hand, but not of how the opponent would react. I would also like to take this opportunity to point out that the opponent wasn't necessarily stupid nor a fish for calling that bet, she had the right read of the situation and in fact outplayed the op. However, it could've been a lucky call as well, the point is, we don't know her thinking. I just hate when people overgeneralize the competition.

Well, the next 99 times that you make this play, I'm sure that you'll be paid off.

Agreed, wrong play at the wrong time. No reason to make a play like this unless down to the last 4 or 5 players.


And to think this play will work 99% of the time is just plain dumb. You know the other player will have some good hands those other 99 times you have a crap hand. They may slow play you and be trapping.

Bottom line, way too much risk vs. reward. If you want to call the flop for the $5, I have no problem with that, but unless you get a sweet flop with your 2 pocket cards, let it go.

turn pro

Basically already have...Thanks...