I know "it depends" is always the answer, but seriously, with what hands and in what situations do you recommend a shutout raise as opposed to cold calling an all-in (besides when of course the all-in is small but you still want to take it heads up).

I'm thinking of that episode of WPT where it was the Bay 101 and the short stack guy moved all-in and then Phil Gordon called with pocket 9s then Moneymaker made in my opinion a nice move and pushed it in and phil dropped out.

This is only one example of where maybe a shutout raise would have been good, but then again pocket 9s, when you don't make the raise you're giving a little something away unless of course you have queens kings or aces in which case let them come on in.

SO what hands, what situations. GO!

newbies. :roll:

It depends.

It always depends..
You cant just say when to make that move or not.

I was 2nd in chips at the final table of a tourny, had KK, short stack moved all in.. I raised all in myself, trying to take this 1 on 1., and BB who was chip lead called me with A,Q.. and ya.. u can gues the outcome.. i got sucked out

okay, I'd normally flame the shit out of a lame question like this, but since I'm tired from packing to move into a new apt, I'll let you off the hook. A shut-out raise really does depend. You always have to consider the opponents behind you. A perfect place for a shut out raise would've been Phil moving in, as I don't think that MM could've called there, but a better one happened at the 2004 WPO when Chip Reese moved in and James Tippin made a bad sm,ooth call. He should've moved in himself to prevent Barry Greenstein from playing in that pot

Wow, not so much feeling the love on my first post. Note that i precluded my question by saying "i know it depends but..." and got mostly a bunch of wise/non-answers. A bigger help then none or repeating "it depends" is to list what it depends on and what the right move is in these cases. For example, with Royal, I know you got sucked out on, but techincally it was great that you got called by the cheap leader on a 3 outer, even better if it was a 2 outer cause the other guy was sharing an ace, for example. You making a shutout raise against (i'm guessing an aggressive opponent) who was also the chip leader suckered him into putting all of his money in, whereas with others it'd be a bad idea because they'd smooth call, or with others a call would entice them to move all in.

So...any helpful responses would be cool, particularly any true tales that worked out well or that you've learned from.

-chill out-

I'm a little confused.

What exactly are you looking for? You make shut-out raises when you want th shut the table out of a pot. I'm really not trying to be an ass, I just want to know what you are looking for.

Ice

It's cool, maybe i'm not being clear or maybe the situation just doesn't come up enough with me, but say you have a,k or a,q and a person goes in right before you, there's 5 people still to go and the all-in represents 1/4 of your stack.

Is it worth it to push it all-in?

What if you have Jacks?

Would it be smart say if you had 10 10 to push it in thinking that no one with say a,k will two all ins (risky).

Just pressure situations like that?

Arrrgh, verge of giving up on this post, like you guys have never had to figure this stuff out.

Cool out, man. There's no hard and fast rule.

Here's what I consider

1) Do I want to play this pot heads up? Will it be a disaster if someone calls behind me?

2) If someone raises after I call, will I be able to call? Will I want to call?

JJ is a good example. UTG small stack moves in, and you're UTG+3. There are like 4-5 players left to act behind you. Tough decision. If the all-in is a pretty big portion of the rest of the table's stack, there should be no need to jeopardize the rest of YOUR stack by moving in behind. If he moves in for 3k and you have 10K, average is 5K, but the button has 20K, there's really no need to move behind him. The button will only reraise with AA or KK, more than likely, but will fold all hands that are behind. The only advantage to pushing behind here is that you'll likely get someone with a hand like AK to fold.

In the late stages of a tournament, calling is usually the best option. Anyone else who is inclined to play will probably be smart enough to check it down unless they make a very very strong hand, and then you can safely throw your jacks away.

However, if you are also relatively shortstacked- or if the all-in wasn't very costly- pushing behind is a strong move, as you're pot committed by a call anyway.

Is that kinda what you wanted?

Ice

Sorry about the lack of loving, you'll have to get used to that. But you will get very sound advice, so welcome to the forum and learn to suck it up like the rest of us 8)

In general, I like shutout raises in these situations. But the stacks of those behind you are very important in making a decision like this. With everyone about equal,

1) I shutout with AKs, AQs and AK, probably fold AQ.
2) Definately drop the TT. Not a good hand to have with an all-in in front of you, esp. with people to act behind you. An all-in with that many people left means you're at best slightly over 50/50 (vs. overcards) and more likely a 4-1 dog against JJ-AA. Maybe you'd be lucky against 99, but doubtful.

Those assume cash games.

Hope that helps.

Word.

Thanks ice.

Sweet simple advice. More to the point of course besides "help what do i do" is to learn what people are thinking, so maybe hopefully at some fortuitous spot you can put them to the test and stick it to them!

Like Wildcat said, he'd make a shut out with a,ks, a,qs, ak, etc.

I'm just thinking it'd be nice if (rare to happen) you could have a guy go all in, then a guy calls off a decent chuck of his stack, but not enough to commit him necessarily and you look down at a,k. If you KNOW the 2nd guy doesn't have a,k then it might be good to push it in. Best case scenario he drops it, worst case you might have a coin flip. And if both opponent have pairs like jj for one and qq for another then isn't it mathematically correct to put it in with a,k or no? Also, you could even have one of them dominated.

All of this depends of course on the short stacked player (how many times the've had to move in) and your perception of the caller, what are your chances of moving him/her off a hand and his/her percetion of you.

--yeah--