I recently read SSHE, and I picked up on a 'waiting until the turn in limit to protect your hand' concept that I'm trying to implement. Let me know if I did it correctly...

LHE 2/4
Table is fairly loose...as you'll see.

Cobalt is button with A K

Pre-flop:
1 fold, UTG+1 calls, 2 folds, MP2 raises, MP3 calls, Cobalt 3-bets, SB folds, BB calls, UTG+1 calls, MP2 calls, MP3 calls
(Pot: 7.5 BB)

Flop (5 players): 9 3 A
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, MP2 checks, MP3 checks, Cobalt checks
(Pot: 7.5 BB)

Turn (5 players): 6
BB checks, UTG+1 bets, MP2 folds, MP3 calls, Cobalt raises, BB folds, UTG+1 calls, MP3 calls
(Pot: 13 BB)

River (3 players): 10
UTG+1 checks, MP3 checks, Cobalt bets, UTG+1 calls, MP3 folds

Final pot: 15 BB


I get the feeling that I might should've bet the flop due to equity, but I reasoned that any sort of draw was going to be priced in, so I felt like a turn bet or raise (on a safe turn card) would do the most to protect. Anyway...feel free to tell me that I was completely wrong. =)

I by no means am a limit expert but I don't see how in the heck you could check that flop. If someone was holding pocket 6s they loved that check. I seriously feel that you have to bet that flop especially after 3 betting preflop. You can represent the A since you have it. I'm curious if you won or lost this pot.

I think that this is actually a common mistake where people choose not to bet for value simply because it will "price" an opponent into a hand.

It is incorrect logic to not bet simply because you are afraid that someone will have the appropriate odds to call you on a draw.

When the alternative is giving the best odds by allowing free cards when you have top pair/top kicker, I think that is simply lousy poker.

You gotta bet this flop for value. Easy easy bet.

If I'm screwing up this SSHE concept...can someone please explain it to me?

And, I did actually win the hand. UTG+1 had 7cTc.

value betting is underrated.

What are you protecting from that you should wait until the turn for?

this is not a spot to apply this principle. there is 2 to a flush and you probably have the best hand right now. you have to bet here, no doubt about it. giving a free card to 4 other players here is disastrous (spelling, yikes!).

Agreed.

After reading the OP's original question, I wonder if there ever is a time when this strategy is best for protecting a hand???

I only give free card when I flop a full boat / nutz flush / or nutz straight... otherwise I just don't know how waiting until the turn is a good idea, nor do I see how it protects your hand.

Maybe heads-up or 3 handed will this strategy work (doubtful, but who am I to argue with SSHE), but not with 4 others in the pot with you.[/code]

The point is that a flop bet does very little to protect my hand. If I bet $2 into a $31 pot, what do you think is going to happen? Who is going to fold? I cannot protect my hand at this point. A $2 bet is basically a free card at this point.

wrto, I'd like to protect my hand from flush draws and people drawing to two pair.

The chapter that I'm referring to is "When A Raise Will Not Protect Your Hand". Granted...I think I might be misapplying the concept (as it refers to just calling a flop bet as opposed to trying to raise it). I feel like the principles are quite similar though (as a bet is essentially the same as a raise).

A brief passage:
"Sometimes, a flop raise will not protect your hand. When these situations occur, you should often just call on the flop. If the turn card is safe, you plan to protect your hand then with a bet or raise. This is especially true when the pot is large, and a lot of fourth street cards might cripple your hand."

Another passage (about having overpair):
"Some people disagree with this advice to wait for the turn to raise in huge pots. They argue that the kings have an edge in pot equity, and therefore raising the flop is profitable. They are correct; the kings make money on every additional flop raise. But we argue that, while raising the flop is profitable, waiting for the turn is more profitable. Sometimes you should forego a small edge on the flop if doing so allows you to exploit a bigger edge on the turn. Raising the turn is hugely profitable in this hand, more so than getting a single bet in. You should risk that immediate flop profit to maximize your chance to raise successfully on fourth street. (Even if you fail to get players to fold, waiting until the turn to raise will usually mean a bigger pot when you win it.)"

Another passage:
"Is the pot on the flop so large that you expect no one to fold, even for a raise? If so, consider waiting for the turn."

And another:
"If the pot is extremely large, forgo a flop raise if doing so increases the chance you will be bet into on the turn."

what they are talking about is calling a bet with the intention of raising the turn. this is quite differnent than checking it through when you are last to act.

Since the pot is so big, no one is folding a draw even for a bet on the turn. The pot has to be small for this tactic to work.

So I guess my move has been universally panned. Lesson learned, I think.

how does giving a free card protect your hand?? It's not really even about protecting your hand, if you have the best hand, you should bet out. Yor betting for value here since you think you have the best hand. There's not only the flush draw out there, but with the 6 on the turn, somebody may have picked up a straight draw for free as well, giving other players free cards to outdraw you is like giving your money away. Your giving the other players a chance to hit their 4 or 5 outters, hit 2 pair, trips or a set for free when they would have folded on the flop to an Ace on the board.

bet, dont let people hit draws for free.

The point of waiting until the turn is to knock out bottom pair and gutshots, mainly.

This hand you have no idea where the bet is going to come from on the turn and that's the main reason you bet.

An example, for the people that asked, would be if you held AA in a 5 way capped pot. There is 20sb in the pot on the flop.

J ,7 5

Someone on your immidiate left bets into you, you should call and then raise the turn.

If you raise now, you are giving people 11.5-1 on a call and they can call with pretty much anything, so raising does nothing to protect your hand, and protecting your hand should be your main goal in a pot this big. So, you wait until the bets double.

The main differences in the example above and the OP post is the pot size and the fact we can be fairly certain we can face the field with two cold on the turn.

the simplest and most accurate advice in this thread. Colbalt, by check TPTK there you are letting people draw for free, granted no one may fold to your bet, but at least they are being charged something to draw. I hate the flop check, I really hate the flop check

I dont mind the check. I try to make the most out of my hands, and sometimes I will take a chance to get money in the pot.

So sometimes I might lose a hand I could have won had I been trying to protect it.

In this situation, you were in last position through out the hand. I really don't think checking in last position like you did on the flop accomplished anything but giving a free card.

If you were in the first 2 positions, then it wouldn't have hurt to check as long as you are going to RAISE any bet behind you. Then on the turn, you go ahead and lead.

Thanks bro. I can see how that situation would be different. Now, if it's checked to you on the flop in MP in that same situation, would you check along for the same reason or would you bet for value?

Id bet for value. It's the next best thing.

Giving a free card doesn't protect my hand. In my opinion, betting the flop doesn't protect my hand either. I checked in order to be able to better protect my hand given a safe turn.

That said...I understand that I misapplied the concept here, and that value-betting here was important. I just got lucky with the results being what I was going for.

Thank you for the input, everyone. I'm now successfully shamed. =/

Exactly... say you hold A K on a flop of K 10 9 after three-betting preflop. There's 3 or more players, and a player to your left bets; you should call on this flop and wait until a safe turn to raise and push off the gutshots/second pairs that can ruin your hand.