it seems with todays players that poker is turning more into bingo??? nobody protects thier stack, just trying to catch. i'd like to hear from winning players on which is the best way to play early in this situation:

its a $340 buy-in 10,000 chips, 30 min blinds. you get dealt Ah10h in cutoff. its the first hand of the tourny and blinds are 100/100, utg+1 calls, mp calls, and i raise to 300. i get called by both (1,000 pot) im putting them on suited conn/overs/weak suited A, possible sm pair. flop comes 10d8h4s, it goes chk, chk, i bet 500 and get called by both (pot is 2,500). turn brings 2c and another chk, chk, so i bet 2,500 and utg1 calls and mp folds(pot is now 7,500). i know there are a lot of donkeys out there but the only hand i can put this guy on is J9/97 or possibly slow play a set of 4s and let me bet it for him, but i think thats not the way to play a set by giving me a free shot at a bigger set, plus i would possibly call a raise with over pair. we both have 6,700 left. river comes Qc and utg+1 leads out with 3,500 so i have to fold. i called him out on J9 and he did show it.

my question is: 1) how do you play against wreckless players early 2) do i just chk the flop keeping the pot small and let them hit, play it like i did, overbet flop 3) do i shove on the turn, which would be idiotic early in my view, or is it? how do you stop people from donkin early in a tourny? it seems early that some players just dont get away from a hand that they are behind on. personally, if i was utg+1...i was folding on the turn. its too early to to chase. he had a max of 11 outs on the turn at 22% to win. i figured i took pot odds away from him to call.

i HATE to lose a pot when i commit myself to one, but whats the best overall way to play (in the long run) vs players like this? i feel i played it right, but man i hate losing chips that way. i keep thinking a shove on the turn but i dont think i could EVER do that. does anyone ever use that ?

LOL so much

In before this becomes Epic Thread #2

doesnt anyone discuss strategy on here? am i at the wrong place? what good is a forum if you cant discuss poker ?

Normally, this early, I would fold/call with ATs in your position this early in a tournament.

If I raised preflop I would make it 500-600.

I would bet pot on the flop and shove on the turn if I felt I was ahead.

As you played it, at least you bet when you were ahead and managed to fold when you were beat.

I think this example falls under super standard with a side of you should bet more.

Pot control on the turn brah. I don't know if i like the raise PF either...were inflating a pot with a marginal hand

to answer your question, you must be patient when facing a reckless opponent. You do exactly what you did. Try to think past the outcome of this particular hand. Your real goal when facing an opponent is to make him make mistakes. For him to call a pot sized bet on the turn with only an open ended straight draw for an example is a big mistake on his part. He is not getting nearly the odds he needs to make such a call. So even though he won this hand, you got him to do exactly what you wanted, and you were able to fold when you were behind. Reckless players will hang themselves eventually, you just have to keep playing smart poker.

Fine, you want me to actually discuss strategy? This is why I was laughing so much.

Raise more pre or limp behind, pot control turn, stop fooling yourself into believing you're a winning player, lose the arrogance, and develop a basic understanding of tournament poker.

why would you raise more pre? you still are getting called? then the bets become bigger on the flop and turn, the guy still doesnt get out if he's gonna call pot sized bet on turn, being a 4:1 dog, so you are made to push the turn and BANG!! he was sloplaying set 4s. i feel that goes against small ball theory. what im getting at is the best way (most chip wins/losses over time) is to limp in and see a flop (but you dont chip up that way). i still believe if you have position you always come in for a raise (there are VERY few situations you dont)

YOU GENERALLY ADD 3X+1 BB FOR EVERY LIMPER IN THE POT. STOP BEING RESULTS ORIENTED, YOU'RE JUST JUICING THE POT 100% OF THE TIME BY RAISING SO SMALL PRE. I REALLY HOPE YOU'RE ADVOCATING JUST LIMPING ALL YOUR HANDS BECAUSE THAT'LL MAKE ME LOVE YOU EVEN MORE

ALSO, DO YOU REALIZE YOU'RE IN THE CUTOFF, WHAT THE **** MORE DO YOU WANT W/R/T POSITION?!!!!!!!!

OVERS to my 10, this was after the flop!

STOP YELLING!!!!

But yeah I agree w/ limping behind.

i guess you dont run into donks very much. seems you just want to put it all in on the first hand of a tourny. personally, i dont get into big pots early! was just wonderin what people think and do when you do? talk about taking everything literally! its a discussion on WHAT YOU DO WHEN U R THERE !!! wake up. and as for results orientated....its constant that donks play this way and there is no getting around it...its a fact they call to the turn!

You 2 fire 2 bullets 3 way with just a pair. You're the one making a huge pot early.

I check back turn.

how can i not fire? i put him on exactly what he had? he still dont fold. and im still not pushin it all in. maybe i should learn to?

100% a joke account

thx highway, this is what im looking for. a simple reply to strategy.but does this way make you more chips over time or lose more? thats the whole idea of this discussuion. what makes more chips over time?

OMG I cant take it anymore these threads are putting me on life tilt

did everyone lose the whole concept here? does anyone know? which way makes you lose more or make more chips over time? it seems all im hearing is your own styles of play

lolz at discussing strategy...i think the people in this thread have all said pretty much the same strat...your a joke if you think playing like this is going to keep...i mean make you a winning player.

Realize that your not as good as you think, and stop arguing when better players tell you you made a mistake

well true, ive heard limp pre...raise big pre....chk turn...all-in on turn. seems to me no-one knows what is the best way to maximize chip stack in this situation, or minimize losses for that matter. has anyone documented which is the best way? the way i described it is the middle of the road, over time i make lots of chips.

OK...well limping is best most likely b/c we have a marginal hand. IF you choose to raise, raise 1bb for every limper. Now since we hit top pair. I would bet flop. Now once we get calls, we want to play pot control b/c we don't want to get involved in a huge pot this early. So checking is soooo much better than betting. And fold river

thx true, this is what im looking for. yet im a believer in looking at the math of this. i have him 4:1 and over time, i put myself in a good spot with chip domination. i can see a limp pre and checking cuz over time this way, i lose less. but does anyone really know which is best? i love a big stack and running over the table. but i guess my main question was "how to get around the donks early" and i know waiting for them to make a mistake will benifit me when i have the nuts but 4:1, cmon, i'll take that every day of the week and on weekends lol. and as for the A10s being weak...yes it is but 300 to see a flop and hit big is well worth it and if nothing comes...even a partial piece of it, i can fold easy. saved myself 2 bills every time i go 3bb+1 per limper dont ya think?

Question: How to get around donkeys in an mtt

Answer: Be very patient b/c they will just completely donate their chips to you.

You don't seem to be grasping the question very well tho, how do you maximize your chip stack in this situation.

i just want to say, (here, i'll do it for you LOL LMAO) ive never read a poker book, never really discussed it (im divorced, no kids, not much family and live in the sticks) ive learned everything by my mistakes and studying while playing, yet since 98, i have not worked a job, and pay my bills by poker winnings. never said i was a pro, or a millionaire. i make @3-4,000 a month but aint getting any better so i decided to learn why. i appreciate the help and know there are many styles and the game is getting harder to beat. there is no "right way" to play, but there are ways of making more out of it. i have the skills...chk raising , phantom calls to steal, using position, yet all i really rely on is mathand reading the players cards. its getting very aggressive out there and i'm looking for ways to avoid/punish. thats why i brought this up...which is more profitable in "THE LONG RUN" i play usually 10 tournys a month avg $120 buy-in and some limit (cuz thats all we have in this idotic state with only a $60 max bet at that. 2-60 spread (1/2 blinds) it is mn's version of no limit, how sick! forgive me if i really dig deep, my mind is built that way. once again...thx JOE

30odd6,

The main flaw I see is that in tournaments, especially early, I think you should be less concerned about protecting the pot you're in and more concerned about protecting your total stack. That's why people are advocating a check or small bet on the turn. Granted, you are giving your opponent the right odds to continue to the river. But you prevent yourself from getting into a big pot with really only a marginal hand. Losing a big pot early can really put you in a difficult situation in a tourny. It sounds simple, but since you have a medium strength hand, you want to play cautiously and keep the pot small.

I'd really like to know where you can live where paying your bills only costs 300-400 a month (Assuming that's what you are saying, it's fairly obvious you don't read period)

go kcuf yourself donk! wow! this is the poker community?? great comment! i live in minnesota.

Every post you make is a refutation of the advice people have been trying to give you. Yes, it's a community, but if you're not going to listen and understand why your poker logic is flawed then why the hell should anyone show you any sympathy? It's clear that you have many leaks in your game, as well your grammar.

Read over hands that have been posted in this forum, there are thousands upon thousands of hands that will help you become a better player. If you have hands that you'd think would be worthy of discussion, then post them and your logic behind the plays you make, but if the general consensus says that you're wrong don't go out your way to prove yourself right. Take a step back, realize what you're doing is more than likely wrong, and learn from it. There are some players who have been playing poker for many many years, but that doesn't mean their game is flawless. Those who go out of their way to learn the concepts and strategies, and realize and accept when they are wrong, are those who succeed at poker. From the few posts you've made in this forum, it's clear you're very stubborn, and that is not a good trait to have if you want to be successful at poker.

Continually arguing your point when you're obviously in the wrong isn't going to do anyone any good.

i apologize to all. yes i am on the stubborn side and maybe its what makes me succeed (all phases of life. when i set my mind to something...i want to know EVERYTHING and WHY). i wrote why i "want" to know more cuz my game was solely based on bluffing and pressure. i am trying to change that and aint doing it quite right, almost but not right. that is why i am on here. i greatly appreciate the help i am getting. if you can look at it through my eyes. i learned on my own and did a pretty good job of it. nobody ever will know all but i sure can use the help. nobody plays perfect. if people dont look at all sides and inside and out, how do you know which is best. i dig too deep sometimes and need to know why???? sorry

I would suggest reading poker books. You are going to get a lot of info without the flaming. These books are geared towards beginners/people looking to improve their game. If you do choose to continue to post on these forums you have to understand that its not personal. People are going to criticize your play and tell you exactly why you failed. If you are going to be stubborn and refuse to listen, then just stop posting. The more you argue with people, the more they are going to flame you and show little interest in adding any real content to your thread.

If you want to post hands don't include the results. Just post the scenario up to a certain point (i.e. flop, turn, river) and give us your thinking.

This forum is a gold mine of information, full of a lot of really good poker players. You can learn a lot from them if you just set your ego aside and listen.

QFT

i guess my way of discussing is too strong???? if i ask someone how a car runs, and i get...turn the key? that doesnt explain that you need fuel, to be put in a combustion chamber, and a spark to ignite it so as to make compression, so the pistons go up and down and give you torque, to spin the crankshaft, etc. etc. etc. i was looking tooo deep for scientific proof that one way is better than the other. i wasnt trying to argue (if you read the whole thread) i was just looking for answers, and not just being told what to do. sorry, i have a high IQ. that doesnt mean booksmarts, cuz there are a lot of people who are booksmart that cant figure out how to tie thier own shoes. im not sayin anything bad about anyone in this thread, i am the kind of guy who likes to see proof and results. yes, i learned to keep pots small early, and find a better spot to put it in. i still feel 4:1 odds is damn good there, and i get chipped up. i'd get away if nothing comes. i thought the whole object of poker was to get yourself into good situations, and thats where i was. from now on, i'll just listen unless you want my thoughts on it. thx

one more question...does daniels teaching of small bal say raise 3xbb+1 per limper??? thx for the answer. and some thoughts to the comment above, if any

Not to be too much of a dick, but seriously, dude, learn to write a little better. It's a serious pain unravelling your crappy structure, punctuation etc...Improve your grammar and spelling and it'll go a long way to improving people's patience in dealing with your questions.

thx for the heads up mercury. i just start typing and my fingers cant keep up with my mind. i tried to fixit... is it any better?

I hear ya, dude. Like I said, no offense meant. And, well, no...it's no better, just shorter.

To be serious for a moment, no that's not Daniel's style. However, please realize that Daniel is talking about tournaments that are extremely deep where he has a perceived significant edge over the field postflop.

The specific hypothetical hand you created in the other thread is a short stack situation (despite your arguing that 18BBs is somehow deep). In this thread, the structure you specified isn't that deep either. Your initial M is 50, and you have 30 minute levels. Playing "small ball" is much more difficult in structures like this because even small bets commit large portions of your stack and you're going to run into a lot of people who have smaller stacks that are going to jam on your small raises.

ahhhh fuk it! my mind works too fast, and i cant type what i think. oh well...no teaching jobs in the future LOL

DUDE !!! it was the first hand of a tourny and were sitting on 100x BB....what other scenario falls under "small ball theory" sure later on you need to get aggressive/ weary/ tight. this is what i talk about when people wear blinders. so much ABC poker that people lose the the concept of playing "said" hand at "said" time, and reading "said" hand. its always: this is the way to play every hand at every point in the tourny.i dont care if i have a million chips or 20BB, i'm playin the odds, and with chips, i'm extremely hard to beat. i'm like merlin, or patrick jane on the mentalist. i see what you have and can see 5 moves ahead to what should/can be done.

Daniel's game is for tourneys where you are WAYYYY more than 100 BBs deep.

This x 100

No need to get all wound up w/A10s so early in a deepstack tourney. Only way I am getting a lot of chips involved here is if I get two hearts on the flop (and then maybe I start firing a bit more). Why race off a big chunk of your stack so early with a very marginal hand. The end result, you lost 33% of your stack w/a pair of of 10s in the baby stages of a big tournament. Only way I am willing to commit that much here is if there is a chance I will have 20k chips by the end of the hand. What HE had and how HE played really doesn't matter. I would question why I invested so much w/a pair of 10s at this point in the tourney. Small ball is the only way to go this early. This would be a decent question only if you were in the late stages of the tournament.

I, for one, am not as good as I think I am.

LOL. I agree. Jesus, how many tournaments out there give you starting stacks of 100x the bb on the 2nd level. I mean other than the Main Event I don't know of any.

Ummm, a lot. 3000 starting chips, blinds 2nd level 15/30 = 100x bb. So that narrows it down to more than I care to count.

Personally, i find at the early stages of a tournament, regardless of wheter its deepstack or not, it is best to get a feel of your table, I would limp in to see flop and maybe call small raise. Why risk your chips so early n a tournament?

I try to get in as many cheap pots as possible early on with a wide range of hands, if i flat call or min raise and I get re-raised, depending on the holding cards and players in pot etc. i can easily fold. Dont fall into the trap of "I HAVE TO RAISE WIT THIS AND I HAVE TO FLAT CALL THAT" because every situation is different and any half decent players will figure you out. keep mixing it up create yourself an image.

Hpe this is some help to you. Listen to what has been said to you, from what i gather there are some very good/successful playrs here offering their advice.