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Snowman
Pot limit hold'em. What do you think? Don't really know how to play in this situation. I guess that's what I get for playing crap hands (although this could come up with a good hand too).

This is also an example of a pet peeve of mine: the minimum pre-flop raise. I feel I can't fold when I've already put in a small bet because of the implied odds if I hit a monster flop, but I don't really want to call.

Texas Hold'em $0.25-$0.25 PL (real money)

Seat 1: LP ($23.80 in chips)
Seat 2: CO ($6.15 in chips)
Seat 3: Button ($12.50 in chips)
Seat 4: HERO ($73.65 in chips)
Seat 5: BB ($32.55 in chips)
Seat 6: UTG ($19.60 in chips)
Seat 8: UTG+1 ($23.35 in chips)
Seat 9: MP1 ($23.90 in chips)
Seat 10: MP2 ($32.60 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
HERO posts blind ($0.25), BB posts blind ($0.25).

HERO is dealt [ QD, 4C ]

PRE-FLOP
UTG bets $0.50, UTG+1 calls $0.50, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $0.50, LP folds, CO calls $0.50, Button calls $0.50, HERO calls $0.25, BB calls $0.25.

FLOP [board cards 5D,6D,KD ] (Pot: $3.50)
HERO checks, BB checks, UTG bets $1, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls $1, CO calls $1, Button folds, HERO calls $1, BB folds.

TURN [board cards 5D,6D,KD,9D ] (Pot: $7.50)
HERO bets $4, UTG calls $4, MP2 calls $4, CO calls $4.

RIVER [board cards 5D,6D,KD,9D,2S ] (Pot: $23.50)
HERO checks, UTG checks, MP2 bets $10, CO calls $0.65 and is all-in, HERO folds, UTG folds.
Zarathustra
QUOTE (Snowman)
Pot limit hold'em. What do you think? Don't really know how to play in this situation. I guess that's what I get for playing crap hands (although this could come up with a good hand too).

This is also an example of a pet peeve of mine: the minimum pre-flop raise. I feel I can't fold when I've already put in a small bet because of the implied odds if I hit a monster flop, but I don't really want to call.

Texas Hold'em $0.25-$0.25 PL (real money)

Seat 1: LP ($23.80 in chips)
Seat 2: CO ($6.15 in chips)
Seat 3: Button ($12.50 in chips)
Seat 4: HERO ($73.65 in chips)
Seat 5: BB ($32.55 in chips)
Seat 6: UTG ($19.60 in chips)
Seat 8: UTG+1 ($23.35 in chips)
Seat 9: MP1 ($23.90 in chips)
Seat 10: MP2 ($32.60 in chips)

ANTES/BLINDS
HERO posts blind ($0.25), BB posts blind ($0.25).

HERO is dealt [ QD, 4C ]

PRE-FLOP
UTG bets $0.50, UTG+1 calls $0.50, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $0.50, LP folds, CO calls $0.50, Button calls $0.50, HERO calls $0.25, BB calls $0.25.

Easy call here. The current odds are great and the implied odds are even better. You have to be able to get away from only a Q hitting though.

FLOP [board cards 5D,6D,KD ] (Pot: $3.50)
HERO checks, BB checks, UTG bets $1, UTG+1 folds, MP2 calls $1, CO calls $1, Button folds, HERO calls $1, BB folds.

Not a horrible flop with you picking up the second nut flush draw. I might have led for $2 here to test the waters, if you get raised a large amount (3/4 or full pot) I'd give it up.

TURN [board cards 5D,6D,KD,9D ] (Pot: $7.50)
HERO bets $4, UTG calls $4, MP2 calls $4, CO calls $4.

Leading here is fine, but it tells the world you have a flush so they know what they have to beat. Plus the bet is small enough for people to profitable draw at a full house aftert UTG calls. I would lead for the full pot and fold if raised. Getting called by 3 people means to me the A is out unless there are people that wouldn't be able to get away from a JD here.

RIVER [board cards 5D,6D,KD,9D,2S ] (Pot: $23.50)
HERO checks, UTG checks, MP2 bets $10, CO calls $0.65 and is all-in, HERO folds, UTG folds.

Good fold here IMO.


Overall, I think you played it ok, but you were a little timid about it. I would want to bet more at some point to try and figure where I am to tell if your Q is good or if the A is out there.

Zara
Kendren
Fold preflop.

Bet the flop. Fold to a raise

Bet the turn (you did). Fold to a big raise.

If you're calling all the way down, why do you fold this river with the third nuts getting 3.4 to 1? If you put him on the Ad or a straight flush, why call the turn?
cdddc75
Even with those odds, folding preflop is probably still best.

With seven to the flop, I would guess that the A icon_suit_diamond.gif is out there somewhere...
Zarathustra
QUOTE (Kendren)
Fold preflop.

Bet the flop. Fold to a raise

Bet the turn. Fold to a big raise.

If you're calling all the way down, why do you fold this river with the third nuts getting 3.4 to 1? If you put him on the Ad or a straight flush, why call the turn?


You want him to fold getting 12 to 1 on his money preflop? See a flop with this but be ready to run for the hills.

Flop action I agree with.

Turn action I agree with. He DID bet the turn though, I just thought he should bet more.

On the river, I think it's reasonable either way in terms of calling the bet or folding. After getting smooth called by MP2 though, it just screams to me like a slowplayed Ad, maybe I'm seeing monsters under the bed though.

Zara
Snowman
QUOTE (Kendren)
Fold preflop.

Bet the flop. Fold to a raise

Bet the turn. Fold to a big raise.

If you're calling all the way down, why do you fold this river with the third nuts getting 3.4 to 1? If you put him on the Ad or a straight flush, why call the turn?


I did bet the turn. With 3 callers I think it's very probable the Ad is out there, so I check/fold the river.

But I was kinda unsure the entire hand, so I expect to be criticised on all streets. smile.gif
Silly String
QUOTE (Kendren)
Fold preflop.

Bet the flop. Fold to a raise

Bet the turn (you did). Fold to a big raise.

If you're calling all the way down, why do you fold this river with the third nuts getting 3.4 to 1? If you put him on the Ad or a straight flush, why call the turn?

I have a feeling you are possibly beat too, but why play the hand through the turn if you are just going to fold after hitting your best hand on the river?


EDIT ***Sorry--darn posting delay***
Kendren
QUOTE ("Zarathustra)
You want him to fold getting 12 to 1 on his money preflop? See a flop with this but be ready to run for the hills.

Flop action I agree with.

Turn action I agree with. He DID bet the turn though, I just thought he should bet more.

On the river, I think it's reasonable either way in terms of calling the bet or folding. After getting smooth called by MP2 though, it just screams to me like a slowplayed Ad, maybe I'm seeing monsters under the bed though.

Zara


First point: In a word, yes. In more words: what flop are you hoping for? Q4x? 44x? True, your implied odds are there for those, but the other 90%, you're just as likely to get something like this, where you can lose everything. Better to fold now and kick yourself later for missing a big hand than call and lose with a big but not big enough hand.

Second point: I just thought he was a little passive everywhere. I think we both would have liked to see a bet before the turn, at least see where you are. Or build the pot, which I felt I would have been doing.

Third point: I finally caught where he bet the turn. My misread.

River: Yeah, I think you're probably right. I just feel like he's getting a good price, and this could very well be someone trying to buy the pot after the turn bettor showed weakness by checking. He may think his straight/2pair/Jd is good now. 3.4-1, I think this is a majority decision call.
Snowman
QUOTE (Kendren)
QUOTE (Zarathustra)
You want him to fold getting 12 to 1 on his money preflop? See a flop with this but be ready to run for the hills.

Flop action I agree with.

Turn action I agree with. He DID bet the turn though, I just thought he should bet more.

On the river, I think it's reasonable either way in terms of calling the bet or folding. After getting smooth called by MP2 though, it just screams to me like a slowplayed Ad, maybe I'm seeing monsters under the bed though.

Zara


First point: In a word, yes. In more words: what flop are you hoping for? Q4x? 44x? True, your implied odds are there for those, but the other 90%, you're just as likely to get something like this, where you can lose everything. Better to fold now and kick yourself later for missing a big hand than call and lose with a big but not big enough hand.

Second point: I just thought he was a little passive everywhere. I think we both would have liked to see a bet before the turn, at least see where you are. Or build the pot, which I felt I would have been doing.

Third point: I finally caught where he bet the turn. My misread.

River: Yeah, I think you're probably right. I just feel like he's getting a good price, and this could very well be someone trying to buy the pot after the turn bettor showed weakness by checking. He may think his straight/2pair/Jd is good now. 3.4-1, I think this is a majority decision call.


I agree with most of what you two say. I think the pre-flop call is still good. I can hit it real big, but if don't then I get out. If I pair the queen or something like that I will be very cautious.

On the river I would probably call if it were heads up, but with 3 callers on the turn I'm scared of that ace although I could very well be wrong and it could be a good bluff by MP2. I should have bet (more) on the flop and turn to find out more. I tend to get passive with three to a flush on the flop when I don't have the nut flush draw.
Kendren
Makes sense. That's the problem with seeing a flop with relative garbage, sometimes it hits you on the side rather than right in the face, and you still wanna go with it. I think a bet/fold on the river was better than check/fold, but IMO, you should at least check/call. I still don't PERSONALLY like the call preflop, but 12-1 odds are nice. I've outlined my reasons for getting rid of it, and here you lost $5.50 when it would have been .25. (Results oriented, sorry.) Incidentally... were you right on the lay down?
Snowman
QUOTE (Kendren)
Makes sense. That's the problem with seeing a flop with relative garbage, sometimes it hits you on the side rather than right in the face, and you still wanna go with it. I think a bet/fold on the river was better than check/fold, but IMO, you should at least check/call. I still don't PERSONALLY like the call preflop, but 12-1 odds are nice. I've outlined my reasons for getting rid of it, and here you lost $5.50 when it would have been .25. (Results oriented, sorry.) Incidentally... were you right on the lay down?


Yeah, it was a correct lay down. He slowplayed Ad Jd, so he had it the whole way. That's one of the reasons I wanted to post this hand. I felt good seeing that ace after the fold and that probably affects my thinking.

Now, after some time has passed I agree with you on the river too. I played this hand pretty badly. It's obvious that I have a flush that is not the nuts and that I'm not too comfortable with. He could definitely be making a play here.

Thanks for your comments.
Kendren
QUOTE (Snowman)
QUOTE (Kendren)
Makes sense. That's the problem with seeing a flop with relative garbage, sometimes it hits you on the side rather than right in the face, and you still wanna go with it. I think a bet/fold on the river was better than check/fold, but IMO, you should at least check/call. I still don't PERSONALLY like the call preflop, but 12-1 odds are nice. I've outlined my reasons for getting rid of it, and here you lost $5.50 when it would have been .25. (Results oriented, sorry.) Incidentally... were you right on the lay down?


Yeah, it was a correct lay down. He slowplayed Ad Jd, so he had it the whole way. That's one of the reasons I wanted to post this hand. I felt good seeing that ace after the fold and that probably affects my thinking.

Now, after some time has passed I agree with you on the river too. I played this hand pretty badly. It's obvious that I have a flush that is not the nuts and that I'm not too comfortable with. He could definitely be making a play here.

Thanks for your comments.


Very welcome. Keep learning, you're on the right track smile.gif
Makata
QUOTE (Snowman)
Yeah, it was a correct lay down. He slowplayed Ad Jd, so he had it the whole way. That's one of the reasons I wanted to post this hand. I felt good seeing that ace after the fold and that probably affects my thinking.

Firstly, you're being results oriented. If a Td would have taken the pot, you'd be scolding yourself for a bad fold. You need to make decisions based off of partial information, the actual results are meaningless, except for helping to learn when your reads were correct.

If you put him on Ad, then yes, fold. Personally I can't imagine mucking the second nuts, but maybe that's just a leak. 7 people to the flop, only a 14 in 50 chance that the Ad is in someone's hand. If you say that out of the original 9 (I'm guessing?) people besides you, if any A would guarantee call preflop, that chages to 18 in 50, or around 1/3 chance between the 2. I think almost any midrange diamond is calling the turn at such a small stakes game, so you could easily have been winning IMO.

I guess the real question is .. did you fold because you THOUGHT he had the Ad or because you were SCARED that he MIGHT? If it's the former .. good read and good laydown. If it's the latter, then it was a bad, albeit lucky decision.
Snowman
QUOTE (Makata)
Firstly, you're being results oriented. If a Td would have taken the pot, you'd be scolding yourself for a bad fold. You need to make decisions based off of partial information, the actual results are meaningless, except for helping to learn when your reads were correct.


No, I'm not being results oriented. I didn't mean to come off like I was. I know very well the result of one hand is meaningless.

QUOTE (Makata)
If you put him on Ad, then yes, fold. Personally I can't imagine mucking the second nuts, but maybe that's just a leak. 7 people to the flop, only a 14 in 50 chance that the Ad is in someone's hand. If you say that out of the original 9 (I'm guessing?) people besides you, if any A would guarantee call preflop, that chages to 18 in 50, or around 1/3 chance between the 2. I think almost any midrange diamond is calling the turn at such a small stakes game, so you could easily have been winning IMO.

I guess the real question is .. did you fold because you THOUGHT he had the Ad or because you were SCARED that he MIGHT? If it's the former .. good read and good laydown. If it's the latter, then it was a bad, albeit lucky decision.


I really thought he had the Ace. As I've said before, with 3 people calling the turn I found it highly probable. If it had been heads up I would have called.

However, I've still come to think now that it was a bad lay down considering the price and how I played the hand up to that point. And that the entire hand was played poorly.
MrNiceGuy
I agree with the others - fold preflop.

Having played the hand though, what about this play - c/r the pot on the flop as a semibluff? This probably gets everyone to fold except a made flush (although once one person calls, someone extra might call behind with the Ad or a set), so if you get called, you can check-fold UI on the turn (or fold to a flop reraise).

It would cost you money in this case, with the other guy having flopped the nuts, but in general I think this would be a good way to play it. If you get called on the flop, bet say 3/4 of the pot after you make the flush on the turn, then if you get called or raised you're probably beat.
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