Here's a spot we all find ourselves in at times. New to table, been there one hour. know nothing of the table, and try to learn as much about the dynamics and patterns of the table.



Playing 1/2 NL Live - deep stack


Hero 500ish - Is me, Looks like a 20 year old kid, switched to this table and have been here for about 1 hour.

Villain 800ish - Villain has been sitting before i showed up, and has been LAG. He managed to catch a few monsters which is why he is sitting at 800ish. He plays a lot of hands, but remains quiet.

Other stacks dont matter.



Hero is C/O with J ,J
Villain is BB

(8 handed)
UTG fold, UTG+1 limp, MP fold, MP2 limp, Hero raise to 12, button fold, sb fold, villain call. UTG+1 fold, MP2 call


Hero verbalizes to villain "Oooo you called.. ok exciting..." villain laughed. (does this matter? i dunno who cares)

flop ($39)
Q ,10 ,4

Villain check, MP2 check, hero Bet $23 villain call MP2 fold

Turn ($85)
3

Villain check, Hero check

River ($85)
5

Villain bet 80, Hero?

Doesn't he have a huge range here? I think we beat a lot of the hands he is betting here. I would call, but cash games are definitely not my specialty. Someone point out the flaws in my thinking please?

I agree, his range is very wide and skewed.

Our read is also limited on this player, as I've only been able to get to see about 35 hands. he probably saw 35%-40% of his flops tho.

Of the hands you saw him play....was he betting on the river often and not having to show his hand? He doesn't have a Q, but he could have 3 4 or 4 5. A flush is also a strong possibility, but I doubt it. Depending on how agressive of a player I think he is, I think I call.

I just fold...he called our cbet in a multiway pot w/a player yet to act, we're blocking straight draws, the flush draw hit, and he could be v/betting a queen or some weird hand which improved like 34/45

edit: his bet-sizing is bluffy so I couldn't fault you for calling..he can't put us on a strong hand so why's he betting so much?

Flip a coin, he's bluffing sometimes and sometimes he has the flush or something else. He's not value betting worse here almost ever.

so do we think that there is an advantage one way or another?

calling > folding or folding > calling


is this really a 50/50? im leaning more towards he is trying to bluff more often then he has a Q or is value betting a weird hand like 45.

thoughts?

Well we need to be good < 1/3 the time to breakeven on calling. What hands c/c a flop OOP and then bluff a river?

I see some players make big river bets when they hit their draws to compensate for a failed c/r the previous street.


Calling here would really come down to a physical read, how he put his chips in, how fast, timing, blah blah, anything else....for me.

These hands can become fairly typical with live poker. Mostly because you're constantly playing people you dont know.(unless its a small local casino) and you really need to pay close attention to your first few rotations to see who's doing what and why.


I really didnt have any specific reads on anyone, i singled out the amateurs from the ok players, but taht was about it. table was pretty tame.


As for this hand..

what is everyone's thoughts on the flop, on the turn and on the river if we think on levels?

I think we can find a few points in this hand that could sway our decision to go either way. (I saw villains hand eventually, wont tell you if i called or if he showed after i folded. but i do know what he had so I will post results after some more talk)

snap call it
his range is very broad

with 2 limpers in a deep live game i make it $18-20 pf

rest of hand is std and i also flip a coin on the river

Ok, let's think on levels:

Preflop: Hero raises to 12, villain calls and hero says "ok exciting." Villain may take this as some sort of suited connector hand and hero hopes to win a big pot.

Flop: Qh 10c 4h: Hero bets 23 and villain calls with KJ, 2 hearts, or 34 or 45. He may still think you're bluffing with 6 7 or 7 8 and can take it down later with a bet.

Turn: 3h: Check, Check. Villain has made flush, two pair, missed his straight draw, or still has one pair. He's glad to check with any of these hands because he still thinks he's ahead.....especially after you check. Doesn't want to get check raised though if he doesn't have a flush.

River: 5s: Villain bets 80. A big bet which now means: Flush, KJ or two pair. I really can't see him showing up with any other hand other than these 3. Would he really bet 80 with a flush though if he thinks you don't have that big of a hand? I don't think so. Same with two pair. He would almost know 2 pair is good on that board against you and would most likely bet maybe 50 or 60. I still call and get shown KJ or even 9 J a lot and can pick up valuable info if he does have a flush.

we have a bluff catcher, thats it so even against a lag we are stuck here on river. I would have fired probe on turn, Lags usually play like bullys and they hate to see feedback on bad boards.

I would check flop/call turn or fold turn/fold river. I don't remember how many players saw the flop I think just two, so I'd probably check behind flop, if either donked turn I'd call 1 street, if they both checked turn I'd bet for value and charge 1 heart hands, then try to show it down on river.

Royal, I'd like to know your thought process on this hand. What were you thinking on the flop, turn and river?

I like Tim's line on how to play the hand.

Given the way the hand was played, I really don't like calling all that much. Guessing games aren't my thing. Given that two people saw this flop, and they're only either stone bluffing or betting a better hand for value (I don't really think his range is THAT huge - he either has a flush or a Q or has nothing), I tend to give people credit more than hero call them.

There is a three letter abbreviation that comes to mind when I think about calling this river just so he can show up with A9hh or whatever.

omg smack the turn

EDIT: If villain plays well, he bets the turn with a flush because you call with JJ+ that holds a heart, and AK with a heart.