I play a lot of the 18-man 1.75 turbo's. Occasionally, I find myself in a situation similar to the following:

8 players left
Blinds 200/400.
My stack 1050.
Dealt 8s 9s on the button
Player 1 (stack 4K) raises to from EP to 800
Player 2 shoves his remaining 1200 and change
Player 3 calls (stack 8K)

Me? I call.

My logic is that I'm probably about 20% to win the hand, and if I win it, there's a very good chance of cashing. I'd have close to 5K in chips. Waiting around for a big hand before getting blinded out (and possibly still losing) seems even more risky, since I have almost no fold equity left. I probably do not even have pot-odds here, but winning this pot, as unlikely as it may seem, is about the only way to really get back into the game. Considering the hands already in the pot, calling with something like A6 suited would really be stupid, but suited connectors not as much.

Yes, I've done this, and sure, most of the time I bust. When I do win, I have a tendency to get deride excessively by the guy who lost with AK, AQ, or whatever. Heck, maybe someone even has a big pair, and I'm only around 16% to win it. Or maybe I'm just up against a few overcards and a small pocket pair, and I'm closer to 22% to win. So, I just figure around 20% on average.

Make sense?

EDIT: meant to save "overcards" instead of "overpairs"

EDIT2: Assuming I have 1050 left after the antes have gone in (25), that puts my pot at (most likely), 1050 x 3 + 200 (antes) + 600 blinds. So, I'm calling 1050 into a pot of 3950, giving me exactly 1 in 3.76 odds. That's slightly below the 1 in 4 that I should have. Adjusting my stack down to 800, I get exactly 1 in 4 odds on a call here.

Assuming I'm up against AA, KK, and QQ, I'm still 19%
If I'm up against AK, AQ, and KsQs, (or similar) I'm in pretty good shape (33% to win)
In other worst case scenarios (incl if I'm up against 88 and 99), I'm aound 15-17%.

Ok, I guess what I'm really asking is something akin to "implied odds". Think beyond this hand. In this hand, I don't have odds to call. I might be kind of close (say 3.3 to 1, instead of 4 to 1). But when you factor in the chip position that this hand puts me in for the entire tournament, it doesn't seem as bad. Winning would give me a lot of fold equity against other 1.5-3K stacks.

Positions would help, I don't like calling in these kinda hands cause even if we might win a few times I think we will have better opportunities to win a pot even though we are earlier to act.

I'm on the button with 3 players already in the pot ahead of me. SB and BB have yet to act.

depends on read of villain #1 will he overshove to isolate?i wanna take the odds here but,... are you in the money? no, ugh i fold here then

I fold 89s without hesitation, we can still get better hands and even though we might have a worse position I'll wait it out and beg for a better hand and antes not to kill me.

I'd call here. Your getting 3.5 to 1 on your money here. You need to find a spot to get some chips quickly and as you said you have no fold equity considering you got a stack of 1050 at 200/400 blinds. Nobody will fold to your shove getting 2 to 1 on a call considering your desperation mode. Call and hope to get healthy.

The real problem is being at this stage in the tourney with this short a stack. Either you just came off a disaster pot, or your playing way too tight and not chopping away at pots to pick up chips along the way.

It's a 1.75 turbo. Maybe my AQ shove just lost to AK (or vice versa). There are certainly a number of ways to get a stack that size. I suppose it's also possible that I haven't really had a hand/opportunity yet, blinds just went up, and I've been folding a lot. It can happen. I don't like to go crazy early in these.

I had forgotten to take antes into account, which I think would be an extra 200 chips, giving me slightly better pot odds.

Yeah, you want to win more pots at earlier stages to avoid situations like this. But I don't call this with two people still to act and one that most likely is gonna call

i mean by the book i think we have odds but we have no way of knowing what is live, i mean or flush outs could be an illusion and we could only be trying to spike 2 pair or st8 or st8 flush so that is why i fold, but again by the book we have odds so idk

You are on the button. You have 6 chances when you fold this hand to pick up something better to get it in with.
I fold.

If you were UTG or UTG+1 I might shove and hope for callers based on the above theory. But on the button, let's get some paint at least to go to battle with.

Agreed

I know everyone is saying fold but I call this.....and hope SB and BB come along. At this point in a tourny you need to get lucky to stay in and what better time to do it with a 6-7k pot for you. Regardless of how you got to this point chip stack wise you can't win a turbo but sitting and waiting.....It's probably not the correct answer but I do it and either win and give myself a second life...or lose and load up another....

Well technically speaking you shouldve been shoving/calling ATC's about 2.5 BB's ago...so in this situation i dont think you can really look at it from an EV/implied odds standpoint...because you shouldnt be in this position with such a small stack all that often, by all that often...i mean close to never.

Fold because even w/o fold equity, you'll still be able to find a 40/60 spot at worse. And the goal of a SNG first and foremost is to cash. Once you've cashed, then play more aggressively to move up the scale.

We have the CL opening - then an all-in shove - and you want the SB and BB to come along for the ride?

It might be a 6k pot but the OP has nine high. 9 HIGH. How is this not a fold?

How about instead of relying on 'luck' the OP makes a more pointed attack.

Granted the OP is in bad shape but by no means on life support. At this point the objective is to cash. 'Top 4' right?

A call here is waaaaay risky.

If this was a tournament where only first place is rewarded, that would be a more compelling reason to call but you've got to fold.

I'm still not claiming a call is absolutely the right play, but things to consider:
Calling with 9 high in this position is probably a much better move than calling with Ace rag, K rag, or Q rag or even something like QT. It's likely that many of the over cards are already out there. Short of having a monster, your best call here is with exactly something like 89s. I'm not dead set against folding here, but I think a good case can be made for a call. That's really what I'm trying to figure out.

Anyway, with that stack, and assuming that there aren't 4 other stacks as bad or worse off than me, I'm probably only about 25% to cash. Maybe less. I'll probably need to win a couple 60/40's just to get my stack back up to something reasonable. And what are the odds of winning two, or perhaps three, 60/40's in a row (even assuming I'm the 60 and not the 40)? Two 60/40's plus a steal would probably put me in the money, but I'd still have a smaller stack than if I just took my 20% now. Add in one more 60/40 and I'm looking at right around 20% (possibly best case) to put myself in the same chip stack, but by then, blinds are probably 600 or 800, and now I have an average stack with less fold equity.

As for everyone that claims I shouldn't be in this situation to begin with (or "almost never") in an 18p turbo, it's hard to believe you are serious. There are a bazillian things that could have brought me here, and assuming that the only reason is because I've been waiting for monster hands is just plain silly, and not even part of the question. I've played about 1,000 of these in the last month alone, and I've found myself in almost this exact situation at least 3 times that I can think of. I think I won once, and busted twice. I'm sure I've found myself very shortstacked at the final table a heck of a lot. At that point, you just hope to win a couple coinflips, or that your UTG shove with AJ holds up, etc. Arriving at the final table with 1500 chips (1/2 avg) might be better better odds than doubling up on the first hand, as far as odds of cashing. But that would be a question of its own, so let's not go there... ;-)

Look I'm not advocating that this is a standard way to play by any means....But the OP has 2.5bb's. What's waaaaaaaaay risky is getting into this situation in the first place. There is no fold equity and with antes in play if we wait another "six" spots and say we get KK utg and double up? Guess what...we will more than likely be right where we started when the blinds come around. This is a good situation to make 6-7x times our stack! 6-7X'S! So we have 9 high....but it's a suited connector which gives us a lot of ways to win pf against any hand. I don't just shove me stack in with ATC and hope for the best everytime I play but I see this being a great opportunity to get back into a tourny that otherwise is doomed to end very soon for us anyway. Plus if we just lost the last hand with AQ vs AK we should be putting a post-it note over the cards in this hand and shoving anyway. Do you have a nephew named Broomcorn?

Don't you think the SB and the BB will come along as well with 87,98 and such because they also think that the overcards are out? Also, there's probably 3 people involved in this hand without you so there will probably be someone busting out, giving out a better chance of finishing in the money

Also, you say we gotta win a few coinflips... We are NOT coinflipping with 89s, we are a huge underdog!

Antes, what antes? See OP.

Yes, if antes are in play here and you have 2.5 BB's you should have shoved each of the last dozen hands, and you should get in this one too. Without antes you wait here IMO. Then again with 2.5BB's I get the basis for getting in here in a family pot for a big chip up.

Assuming SB and BB have decent stack sizes (say 2500 or more), there is no need for them to take that risk yet. If BB has, say 250 more to call, fine. He's unlikely to really affect my overall odds.

I don't have a problem with you playing 89s. Not at all. It's just the number of players that you're up against. I totally agree with you that 89 is much better than playing Ace-rag. And if you open shoved with 89 I wouldn't have a problem with your play at all.

But you're calling off your tournament life with at least two players in the pot. I think it's a poor decision.

Also, as someone pointed out earlier, you are on the button and have 6 chances to pick a better spot.

We all get into these situations. A bad beat, super card dead, etc. I don't think we should compound it by calling off our tournament life. I will admit I do not play turbos. So I'm fairly foreign to dynamic but I do play a lot of 18-man sit-n-goes.

And yes we may not have any fold equity but I'd rather have someone else make the decision as to my shove and be up against fewer players.

No nephews named Broomcorn.

Whether you have a coinflip for a double up or a 20% chance to get 5x chip stack doesn't really change the odds. Except that we can save time by getting out of this nasty chip situation one way (bust) or another (back in the game with a healthy stack!). A case for a call can definitely be made imho, ymmv. I'd probably still fold and then go on tilt when it turns out that I would have made a winning hand.

He brought it up in the 4th or 5th post down.....

Good post, we are calling so most of the time our only way to win this pot is if the deck goes fairly cold and gives us atleast one/two pair(s) and show up the best hand. We don't even have any sidepot to win, so we do need to beat everyone.

When going all-in, we only raise it to about 2,5BB, but the other ones around the table still have to call about 30% of their stack so we give them a tough decision. Nobody wants to be a hero at this point to bust you out.

I'm pretty much calling anyone*, anytime, with any two cards if they have my stack. Every once in awhile, I'll see someone fold, but it's not SOP.

*EDIT: Assuming on on the big-blind.

Ahhhhh, my bad.

OP, u should really edit OP to include that info.

In my opinion that makes the difference between getting it in here and waiting. I'm folding if i have 6 other chances to get it in stronger. If there are antes involved, in not widdling my stack further with antes with no guarantee of even getting a better hand to shove with. I think the theory of getting it in with mid suited connectors is a founded one. No antes here, I wait and roll dice with my 6 shots left, with antes, get it in and gamble.

Ummm.. I did. I edited it 2 hours before you posted that. Regardles, it only grows the pot by an extra 200 chips. Not a huge difference.

I like the call here.

So what if we have 6 chances to get a better hand. You also have even more chance of getting worse hands and/or total crap. I'm not saying 89s is a winning proposition, but it's the kind of hand you want in a multiway pot when your M is pretty much zero and you will be called (on subsequent hands) by almost anyone and anything, esp hands that will crush you. I really think being about 20% is about as good as you can hope for here and, hell, you stand a chance of quadding up. Quite a few high cards will have duped outs and mid connectors with flush capability isn't too bad.

Well, that's the thing. We don't know if the next hand is AA or 27o, but I still think we will be able to get better than 20%. We will get called without a doubt by almost anyone, but they also might reshove to isolate us. HU we will probably be in good shape to more than double up.

The way this hand has played out(...) I think we'll get atleast one better opportunity.

Though, a shove is an okay move here, I personally believe a fold is better from this spot. Seems like the people in this thread are a little split and you gotta get your money in somewhere. Go for your gut feeling.

I think that completely misses the point. 20% here is basically a coinflip. Our odds are roughly 1 to 4 to win roughly 4X more chips.

Let's just say, for the sake of argument, that I had to win 3 60/40 situations over the next couple rounds (double to 2K, double to 4K, lose some chips to blinds and then take out a shortstack), to get my stack up to 5K. 20% doesn't look so bad now, does it?

Anyway, I think I've convinced myself that it's not a bad play. With an even shorter stack, say < 2BB's, it's a no-brainer. I was actually expecting someone to suggest, "Ummm.. How can you even think of folding there?"

Exactly. That was the point I was trying to make. I don't think you can let this opportunity slide. You can get HEALTHY fast, and you're most likely going busto anyway. I'd take a 20% chance to have a fighting shot at the tourney here.

I didn't mean to be offensive with the "how could you let yourself get in this spot" comment. I'm new to forums and try to be as helpful with the limited poker knowledge I have. I understand things happen. Whenever I bust out of SNGs early it's always b/c crap hit the fan. I could be wicked low stacked trying to find a spot to get it all in and chip up. Here's your spot. Gamble it up.

It's a $1.75 turbo. I play a lot of these also and when your multi tabling roughly 10 of these, you will easily have stack like this in more than one of your games. It easily happens.

Back onto OP point with 8s9s I definitely fold. I guarantee we pick up better than 9 high in the next orbit.

FOLD.