11 remaining at this point. Played quite a few hands with villain - solid player, was playing probably half the hands at this stage. Hadn't shown down any bluffs that I can recall. Is there any way for me to toss this hand at any stage?


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 4.4 Tournament, 400/800 Blinds 75 Ante (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP (t11121)
Button (t45534)
SB (t19794)
BB (t38375)
Hero (UTG) (t23278)

Hero's M: 14.78

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 6 , Q
Hero bets t1800, 3 folds, BB calls t1000

Flop: (t4375) Q , 6 , 10 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t2700, BB calls t2700

Turn: (t9775) 4 (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets t5100, BB raises to t12000, [color=#CC3333]Hero ???

No.

no....you've put 50% of your stack in the pot and they're tons of hands in his range you beat and very few that beat you.

your preflop raise was too small, and im not sure why youre raising this hand anyway...you have a guy behind you with a reshove stack.

But as played, you cant fold

You're getting it in now, but he has QT...they always have QT, stupid hand that it is.

That said, with 11 left in an 180, why are you raising Q6 OOP? With an M of 14.78 to start, you're pretty close to shove land. If you want to shove Q6s that's your prerogative, but raising small just creates spots like this. Personally I'd rather find an A or a K in CO or button and shove to accumulate chips.

Yeah fold, you're beaten by Q10.

bad hand utg even 5 handed, open was tiny, and i bet bigger on the flop when i find myslef in this spot, and yah all you can eat and you probably ran into q10 or a set and that is what you get for opening this hand UTG. Your M is right in the range where we open hands preflop normal but they need to be good hands that will have continuing power on the flop because we are kind of short to be in the business of folding a ton of flops. Why did you open this hand by the way i mean it is almost neg EV versus random! and villain has better than random if they are calling you open!

fold preflop please

You're all a bunch of nits.

And...

^^

Nothing wrong with the open or sizing, especially 5 handed.

Thank you. Let's please remember that we're five-handed here. Another thing to note (which I didn't initially) was that I had pitched for the previous two orbits. If we're sitting around waiting for an ace or a pair to open short-handed, we're just being blinded off. Is Q6 ideal? Of course not. But I'm obv folding to a sizable re-raise. The small raise was designed for that purpose. Opening bigger is worse, IMO.

Yes, I could have pitched it pre-flop, but I really don't think the raise is that unreasonable.

Anyway, thanks for the responses.

This reasoning would make sense if you raised with suited connectors or K10 etc... but with Q6 you are wrong. Dont make this play. You arent winning many big hands with Q6 in this spot, but you can lose quite a few big pots. I dont think you are good enough to make this play as you will get yourself in a lot of trouble. I doubt you could get away from top pair hands and you would lose much of your not so big stack.

Also, if you are asking if you could get away from this hand then you arent good enough to play it. Fold preflop next time.

Which is exactly why so many player are converting to opening raises of 2.5xbb or less. Very few players are going to call because of the .5bb they don't have to put in, but it saves you that much when you get re-popped.






LOL @ that logic. We all have been in tough spots with AA/KK/QQ/AK where we aren't sure if we can fold/call/whatever....does that mean we should muck them pre

Btw, am i the only one that missed this.....



Not to mention that this may not be a bluff, but AQ/KQ/QJ/Q4s maybe QhXh. Yeah, you'll run into sets and QT but it happens. With 40% of my stack in though, idk... I don't see a fold.

Yes, and a hand like K10 or even suited connectors can't get you into trouble.

Tough spots with AA/KK/QQ/AK is very different then tough spots with Q6. Nice try though.

Not nearly the trouble Q6 would get you in. How many big draws are you flopping with Q6? I dont know about you, but I find it much easier to play hands that have draw potential then to play hands strictly for steal opportunities.

HAHAHAHAHAHA. I'm suppose to play hands to flop big draws?

Seriously, your posts in this thread are borderline terrible and just annoying. Just the way you type them reminds me of this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znowCx_y7nU

please enlighten me as to how is so different, oh wise one.

Well dummy, when you are raising to steal, your backup plan is to have a hand that can flop big or a big draw. Q6 can only do one of those.

You are making yourself sound stupid.

Are you kidding me? This cant be a serious question. I cant reply to such stupidity.

My point exactly.

So your point is that you are too stupid to talk to? I find that hard to believe. Even for you.

This can't be real. There is absolutely nothing wrong with opening Q6 here and the argument you're giving is so basic, low level, and illogical that I don't know where to start picking it apart.

You should try though Tehtoe, especially since this guy seems to think he's god's gift to poker. I'd love to see you put him in his place.

I mean when you're opening with Q6s here you're doing it as a complete blind steal, there's not really gonna be too many tough spots post when you flop a pair, especially in 4.40s when 99% of players play so straightforward. Just by knowing what a poker forum is I'm assuming the OP has a decent postflop edge on these players and will be able to manuever postflop and be able bluff/get value/whatever he needs to without going apeshit when he flops top pair.

You don't need to be able to flop a "big draw" in order to open a hand. If you do, you're going to end up being very exploitable and polarizing your ranges in so many spots. Seeing how this is 5-handed on the FT bubble in one of the softest low limit tournaments on the internet, there's no reason not to open here. This would be bad if you were around 20 BBs or less, but with 30 BBs I'm perfectly fine r/f pre. If I'm flatted, I'll just reevaluate post flop.

As played, he can obviously never fold with stacks the way they are and how huge he is on this fairly drawy board when his opponent is going to be showing up with a lot of draws and random top pair hands.

I know this post is prob all over the place but I'm so tired I don't care.

my bad, for some reason i thought the OP had only 15 BB's. OP,Nevermind what i said in my post about raising Q6 being wrong. Raising this is perfectly fine like TehToe and some others have said. Btw Tehtoe, Aaron Rodgers is gonna get soulcrushed by Jared Allen on Sunday, SKOL VIKES!!!! =P

I dont in any way think Im god's gift to poker. I received hostility from my post so I gave it back. Plain and simple.

Q6 is just too weak to raise with in these low level tournies. And if you are playing low level tournies (as I do) then you are getting yourself in more trouble then not opening with hands like this. Thats been my point the whole time.

No, you're not. 99.99999999999% of these players are extremely exploitable postflop. That's why we're raising with q6s here, because more than likely we have an advantage over everyone else at the table postflop. You don't need hands that will "flop big for you", as tehtoe said that's polarizing your range, and that may not matter now, but if you want to move up limits you have to learn to open more. Players at these levels are atrocious postflop, especially on the bubble.

And quit saying hands like q6s get you into trouble, every hand that you recommend to play can do the exact the same thing.

I'm not to call anyone stupid or dummies but I got it the same way when you said, if you can't get out of hands, don't play them. That doesn't really make sense. At all.

Oh, and that movie was funny Eddie.

As for the real discussion here, I don't see us laying down our two pairs. Okay, from time to time he might show up pockets/QT, but being so pot commited you can't fold. And you're always playing to win the tourney so these extra chips will do us good on the FT

wait, eddie
you first say we're raising purely as a blind steal, then go on to point out where OP's read says villain is playing every other hand

and you still want to raise? that doesnt make sense.
if we're raising purely as a blind steal, and the big blinds not folding, why are we raising?

The way the hand plays out I see no reason to fold here. We are in the money so thats the first part accomplished and now we make a real assault on first, as we want to win every tournament we're in. With the re-raise on turn, I shove, and I see AQ many a time in villain's range.

True, however the main debate going on now is whether the raise with Q6s is bad in general. Nobody else has mentioned villain is playing 50% of hands. I still may raise with Q6s depending on the villain. If he plays 50% of hands but check/folds 3 out of 4 flops then I don't see why we shouldn't raise.

Your first post was subtly hostile and arrogant. Is your argument that you shouldn't play hands unless you can fold them post-flop to aggression? XXeddie should be/is considered a solid $4.40 reg... as are most posters in this forum. Learn to have a little more humility in commenting on teh pokerz or no constructive strategy conversations will result. Or don't, and get ripped apart by successful tourney regs.

Folding here is like throwing money away. Although, it's pretty obvious that OP posted this because he got coolered by Q10, we aren't going to raise w/ hands like Q6 and flop two pair, only to fold it with half of our stack committed... especially with that board, and at this stage of the tournament. I'm not sure if you're advocating a fold on the turn, or to not play the hand at all. The first argument is laughable, and the argument on raising pre-flop depends on your style of play and aggression level and many other factors. It's not WRONG to play Q6ss here, but it's certainly OK to fold pre. Commenting that he should fold pre because: "I dont think you are good enough to make this play as you will get yourself in a lot of trouble." makes you sound like an arrogant douche.

And obviously you didn't notice that it was suited.

Actually I got coolered by 66, but the point is the same. I was pretty sure everything was correct post-flop but there are always other thoughts to be heard. That said, the point about not playing this hand because there is a "short-stack" on my left is not a good one. The supposed short guy had an M of 7, not 2. I'm not going to wait for a top 10 hand due to my supposed fear that he'll shove over me. If he happens to show up with a quality hand right now, good for him. It's an easy fold for me at that point and I'm not out much at all.

Passivity is not a desired attribute at this stage of the tournament. As I stated earlier, I don't think Q6s is much of a stretch to open. The post about not playing a hand if you can't fold it post-flop is really ignorant. I'm probably not folding aces on this flop either, but if I run into 66 with that hand, it's gg me too. Should I have pitched my aces pre-flop? If there were 30 players left and we were sitting at full tables, I'm sure as hell not opening with Q6s. But short-handed near the final table bubble? I don't see a problem with that at all.

The bottom line is that I'm not sitting there passively waiting for a pocket pair or a big ace to play a hand. It's five-handed.

(Your post was quoted for the QT reference, Beaver. The above is obv not directed towards you.)

i get what you are saying, but the problem with this hand is our big draw we may get, may be no good and we could lose to K high and A high draws, and asides from that this hand really only has 2 pair or full boat kind of value, which is just so unlikely

Jesus christ people quit looking at the hand for it's value. We're on the final table bubble, people playing to make the FT, and we're probably better than every player at that table with postflop play. If you feel confident with your post flop play you should be opening a lot more, regardless of your hand and its value

You can't think that way. Yes a draw might lose to a higher draw - it happens unless you only play premiums. Those are coolers/cold decks - we can't worry about that when we play. Aggression is key at this stage of a tournament, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with opening Q6s here. Most times people will play fit or fold postflop around the FT bubble, so cbets will win a big percentage of the time, and we have to trust our postflop play enough to not stack off on a AQT board or something.

I'm entirely too lazy to do any equity calculations, but does anybody think we should possibly pot control the turn? I'm a wuss, I know, but for some stupid reason the big picture doesn't seem that bad to me. I don't really see us ever getting it in with a ton of equity against the range that shoves on us. And if he flats and shoves a red river wtf do we do? The only real win with the board and effective stacks with the bet we made seems to be a fold, and our hand might be a little strong to hope for that.

Sure, we're 'letting' draws get there, but it seems like a pretty neutral spot to put a lot of our stack in when these things all payout so top heavy.

PS - to whoever suggested AQ is in his range. Have you ever played a 4.40? If he has AQ 99/100x he's c-raising us on the flop IMO

thats true, and against most tight players in the blinds i would def. raise.

i would raise much worse than Q6s too.

but if hes playing 50% of hands and folding a lot i doubt he has a big of a stack as he does.

im folding IN THIS SITUATION, but Q6s is perfectly fine for a raise here most of the time.

I think it is more likely than you think. I swear, 75% $4.40s I play there is some giant stack in the final 18 who just keeps calling everything and getting there. It is cause they all suck that bad, but eventually one of them is gonna get hot.

But seriously, I don't get all the talk about the VALUE of the hand.... it's a steal....

AND its an easy dump if you get 3bet

how many people wanting to raise suited connectors, A-x and suited broadway are folding to 3bets?