pretty obvious i screwed this hand up, but as played do you call the river bet or no? no real reads on the players in the hand either

PokerStars Game #34048722107: Tournament #203040923, $3.00+$0.30 USD Hold'em No Limit - Level IX (200/400) - 2009/10/14 22:26:21 ET
Table '203040923 19' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: jloochic (10680 in chips)
Seat 2: djarra (9035 in chips)
Seat 3: FishNbarrel (5705 in chips)
Seat 4: se7enth_bok (53945 in chips)
Seat 5: westhoff (19900 in chips)
Seat 6: eddie24b (12300 in chips)
Seat 7: Enigma2176 (21200 in chips)
Seat 8: geralma001 (16494 in chips)
Seat 9: Golf_in_nut (8250 in chips)
jloochic: posts the ante 50
djarra: posts the ante 50
FishNbarrel: posts the ante 50
se7enth_bok: posts the ante 50
westhoff: posts the ante 50
eddie24b: posts the ante 50
Enigma2176: posts the ante 50
geralma001: posts the ante 50
Golf_in_nut: posts the ante 50
eddie24b: posts small blind 200
Enigma2176: posts big blind 400
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to se7enth_bok [Tc Kc]
geralma001: calls 400
Golf_in_nut: folds
jloochic: folds
djarra: folds
FishNbarrel: folds
se7enth_bok: calls 400
westhoff: folds
eddie24b: calls 200
Enigma2176: checks
*** FLOP *** [Jh Th Ts]
eddie24b: checks
Enigma2176: checks
geralma001: bets 400
se7enth_bok: calls 400
eddie24b: folds
Enigma2176: calls 400
*** TURN *** [Jh Th Ts] [8h]
Enigma2176: checks
geralma001: checks
se7enth_bok: checks
*** RIVER *** [Jh Th Ts 8h] [5s]
Enigma2176: bets 1800
geralma001: folds
se7enth_bok: ????

please convert!!! blah ! anyways,.. We are plenty deep here so raise preflop. It is not the top of your range but def. raise worthy. I think the big problem comes when you called the flop, st8 cards and flush cards can come, don't get too greedy but a reraise is in order i mean it is a min bet! as played if you raise to 1k or 1.2K you still offer some odds but i just think we need to value bet that flop to help price out some draws. Because we didn't reraise the flop we were stuck in checking the turn, which makes our line hard because if a flush comes on river and we bet at all, we are turning our hand into a bluff. If we bet here, get called and see a flush river we fold. I think checking turn isn't as bad as not raising the flop because we chase out a lot of the draws that way so we only need to worry about the nut draw. As played i fold river, we have a total bluff catcher, and we never extracted value when we were almost always ahead, no we are stuck thinking about a hero call in the first place. If we had raised flop or turn ( ideally both) i would call because i doubt someone is calling 2 barrels with a draw.

sorry about the conversion, I just really cant stand converted HH's. on the flop it was one of those things when I just yell NOOO as I just call.

Please, no, don't raise this. Just fold pre.




This is correct, but it's a raise, not a reraise.



See above about the reraise, but no, no, no...turn is a must bet because there are tons of added draws now. I highly doubt anyone is checking a made flush here.



Disagree, I call river since we checked the turn through. Villain can have plenty of Tx or Jx or a missed naked Ah in his hand.

i kind of agree but i just don't think we EVER get called like at all like we get fold outs like 80% of the time here imo. With a paired board we may be able to barrel hard and make some of the weaker flushes fold out. I just think because we didn't bet flop we get put in a kind of lose lose situation because we hate life if we get reraise on that turn, and it isn't too far fetched to see someone trapping here. I guess if we had reads it would be a little more clear but we dont

What's wrong with raising pre? We have a lot of chips. I dont hate the limp behind but I prefer raise.

Just bang it up on the flop, bet turn as played.

I guess as played to river call is fine but raise/folding might be super expert although I don't think I'd do it.

I just try to get more chips in the pot on the earlier streets.

Dude, I'm sorry. I try to comprehend your posts, I really do, but I just can't. You really need to work on organizing your thoughts better. Paragraphs help.

What do you mean we get fold outs? I'm not even sure what that means. And I'm not saying bet to make a flush fold - that will never happen. But you can't give a free card to someone with one naked heart or QK or 9x or something. If someone is trapping then it happens...but we can't be afraid to value bet our strong hands on drawy boards because of it.

And for (hopefully) the last time, it would be a raise on the turn, not a reraise.

KTs would just be stupidly bad RIO situation in a stationfest like a 3.30, no? I'd rather do this with 87s if we're looking to balance.

Nah, I don't mind the raise here either...amazing in the 3r people do in a way play fit or fold poker and we are going to have position on people, though I don't hate the limp either.

But I definitely think that in this multiway pot, we HAVE to put some type of raise in on the flop so we can get our chips in here

As played, meh...I guess we have to call?

It depends on my image at the time/how people have been playing to act behind.

My range for raising here could be extremely wide in the right circumstances. I don't think KTs is a hand to avoid doing it with. In fact any 2 broadway is probably fine.

The fact you're in the CO means there's probably an 85% chance you'll have position for the hand if you raise pre - which is huge.

Hands to avoid raising with are hands like A2o-A8o, weak Kings. These are terrible RIO hands.
My limping behind range is probably stuff like small pairs and a few weak suited aces.
A decent raising range for me might be something like : 55+,A6s+,K8s+,Q9s+,J9s+,T8s+,97s+,87s,76s,65s,A9o+,KTo+,QTo+,JTo

This is the 3 rebuy. 90% of the players are extremely straightforward postflop, 8% are batshit insane postflop and 2% are possibly decent.
When I have lots of chips I find myself playing up to 30% of hands in it if the table is right- which mostly comes from opening a ton - but also comes from isolating limpers who are usually just limping suited trash.
If you find someone limp/re raising you (I've found people doing it with hands like A9 and JT recently - bizarre) then you should tighten up to adjust to them.

fwiw - you can just limp this behind and play a +EV hand- I guess it depends on your style.

very much this

I might actually call this, if only because:

Betting has been light and I have a lot of chips; villain has not repped a flush or straight, although these are likely things he could be holding; likely holdings are AJ/KJ. He could be hoping for someone to re-raise his river bet so he can shove JT/flush/str8, but it's not even a pot sized bet, so I think he's got TPTK or less.

FWIW, I don't think this hand is as messed up as OP thinks. It's almost like a small ball hand.

I think if you were playing super expert you could almost

-bet/fold the turn
-raise/fold the river

but I don't think I like folding this hand so I don't reallly mind it post turn. I just really think more chips have to go in on the flop. Then it'll be fine to check/back turn and call river b/c you have built a decent sized pot with a strong hand on the flop. It feels lame to win such a small pot with flopped trips.

thanks,

I just ended up folding the river because I was lost. I definitely agree I should have put in a raise on the flop.