I lost the hand history but in this particular situation Im deep in an $11 MTT, bout 60 or 70 players left out of 1550, 2.5k for first.

In the BB I pick up KTo with an M of like 9. Its folded around to this dude in middle position 3 with an M of about 4, who shoves. It is then folded around to me...Im pretty sure this is a standard call right?

Is villain's shoving range wide enough where we can just call here and expect to either have the best hand or be in some kind of 50/50 65/35 type situation most of the time? Do we call here or give up our bb? (which is at this point VERY big)

Thoughts?

It's a fold, shoving with KTo would be fine with your stack size, but calling when you are way behind a shoving range (yes I'm aware of how short villain is, his shoving range still crushes us). Your M is still plenty big enough to wait for a profitable re-shove from a stealer or having all-in vigorish yourself.

No need to get ancy too quick here. M of 9 is still a long time.

someone pushes with an m of 4ish im call in BB with almost any decent hand and this is just good enough to call but it is fringe i think that we don't risk our whole stack but we could use a double a M of 9 is not too much better then 4 we need to get some chips or go broke trying. With 60ish players left we need to try and get something going for ourselves. I think we are close to 50% against his shove range which is almost ATC. Not a beautiful spot but i think we take the gamble here we have 2 overs a good amount of the time.

Rumsey you are confusing M with BBs. An M of 4 is not desperation stage yet and the Villain's shoving range is way narrower than ATC here.

Im aware of m and BB what i am saying is i see villain trying to use first in vigor very hard and light before he is in absolute panic mode. He is trying to make his stand while he still thinks he can get some folding equity. I am aware by the book this is a fold but against a good player i expect to see this being light to avoid dipping down that low IMO but maybe i am just overthinking a $11 tourny but i don't expect that to be as bad as a $5 one

My point is that Villain's shoving range is not ATC, as you make it out to be. Yes he's still short but it's not like completely desperate yet, I would expect a typical shoving range from MP there would be like QJ, K9+, Ax, all PP - maybe discounting QJ or K9/KT a little.

With you being pretty short yourself, you simply cannot be making a loose call like this. You either need to shove/reshove yourself or have a legitimate holding to call.

I agree with SwolyswoND *crowd gasps*

This is a call all day long with a bigger stack but with your stack size it's a standard fold. Well put Sw.

disagree that m of 4 isn't "desperate", that's about 10 BBs. However, pretty easy fold here.

I don't think the average tourney player is open jamming ATC at 10 BB. They probably should, but I'm not giving an unknown that range at this point.

For those of you against the call, does the verdict change if villain shoves from CO or Button with nobody else in the pot?

That would make his range certainly larger but that would also imply that you are in the blinds, which makes the call easier.

I hate calling with an M of 10 tho. If you lose, you are close to that panic zone while if you win, you are not in a much better situation really.