This article was recommended by somebody on TV and I think it really explains the problems of the current system and offers some interesting solutions.

Don't let the title fool you into thinking it's from some ideologue but rather he's a business person who decided to spend a year looking into things after his Father passed away.

http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/200909/health-care

I read this. Very good. The point about how our entire concept of "health insurance" is skewed is spot on.

This is such an excellent article I'm going to print it out and put it under my pillow tonight so I can fondle it.

Seriously, everyone in Congress should be required to read it before they even begin to discuss health care reform.

Yeah, he's a bit long-winded, but it's worth it.

I like this article. I sent it to a few family members. Thanks, bob.

I don't come into this part of the forum too often (generally dislike politics), but I'm glad that I wondered in here today. Very well written, and gives plenty to think about. Thanks for posting it.

Sobering, thought provoking and definitely eye opening. Incredible.

Agree that this should be a required read to all congressmen and senators.


Like, NOW.



thanks Bob.

Big deal...the guy hates America and blames Bush for everything. I think he's also a terrible writer.






Admittablity I didn't actually read this article because I don't want to be smarter and I also think 20 minutes is too long for any idea to be expressed. If it takes more than 3 minutes to express your idea, then your ideas sucks.

A NON PROFIT hospital in NYC. Need read no further.



Wonder if acorn has ties?

Seriously, if you don't read the article then any comment you will ever make about health care will be an uninformed one and lacking.

Read what I said about the title, it had nothing to do with the meat of the article.

Look at the ideological range of people commenting on this article and saying that it's great and has opened their eyes.

BG was joking in his comment but if you're serious about your's then it truly is sad that you think the way that you do and that you are so lacking in intellectual curisoity that you can't finish something like this.

"Insurance is probably the most complex, costly, and distortional method of financing any activity"

I have read two pages so far, will contuine. The above quote leads me to believe he doesn't follow what the boys in Washington do on a daily basis.

He also hasn't been real involved with our legal system either...go through a civil trial of some kind and see.

"In 2007, employer-based health insurance cost, on average, more than $12,000 per family, up 78 percent since 2001. I’ve run several companies and company divisions of various sizes over the course of my career, so I can confidently tell you that raises (and even entry-level hiring) are tightly limited by rising health-care costs. You may think your employer is paying for your health care, but in fact your company’s share of the insurance premium comes out of your potential wage increase. Where else could it come from?"

good point. here is the funny part. Empolyees don't consider the insurance part of a compensation plan. it like they think it is free.

"Many reformers believe if we could only adopt a single-payer system, we could deliver health care more cheaply than we do today. The experience of other developed countries suggests that’s true: the government as single payer would have lower administrative costs than private insurers, as well as enormous market clout and the ability to bring down prices, although at the cost of explicitly rationing care."

You have no shot of this happening. our government can't do anything well in running a program of this type and in the event they stumble on a system that works they will steal from it untill it doesn't.

You will end up with rationed care, with higher prices, while wondering where all of your tax $$ are going.

Wait. If he doesn't read this one good article then any comment he ever makes about health care is therefore uninformed and lacking?

What is it lately that just because someone finds something interesting and well written then anyone who dares to feel otherwise is somehow not as intellectual or is lacking curiosity?

All in all he had some real interesting points. Quite possibly the best thing I have read written by a Democrat...LOL

I will separate from him because he honestlt believes government can step in and help...I honestly believe they will step in a screw it up. I could be wrong on that, however I believe history is on my side.

Washington will make a mess of it. Let suppy and demand run it course.

By the way, it took me WAY more than 20 minutes. But I'm a slow reader.

FWIW, I did read and appreciate the article. I did find it a little odd that he titled and started the article as he did in such a manner that made it seem that he was going to rely more on demagoguery than facts. You almost can't blame someone for giving up after the headline and anecdote.

He articulates quite well some of the basic premises that I have often tried to express. That US “Healthcare Reform” as it is currently debated isn’t really “reform”, it is just making another entitlement out of insurance. And that the basic problems of the current system are not solved by providing insurance coverage to everyone. And that the true costs of healthcare need to be examined BEFORE embarking on sweeping reform.

Also, ultimately, this is not just an article relevant to the US System and proposed solutions, it is also a criticism of other Countries’ approaches especially as they relate to applicability to the US today.

To be honest, I think he pretty much says that Government will screw it up if they create a new entitlement out of Healthcare Insurance Coverage. So as a Democrat, I hope he is doing everything in his power to stop the so called "Reform" currently being rammed down our throats.

No, it just tilts the hell out of me when somebody takes the time to make some really really stupid partisan one liner and says that he didn't read it but takes the time to say that he didn't read it. Based on that one post I think it's pretty obvious that any discussion with him will be on the level of " my Dad can beat up your Dad. " At least that's the impression that he left with me.

Most partisans and ideologues of any persuasion tilt the Hell out of me because it's their attitude's on pretty much whatever an issue is that mean that solutions won't happen.

Now if somebody says that the article is just too long for their attention span I can understand that in this World.

I guess I'm just old and would rather read an article from The Economist Magazine or something like this one then one from USA Today.

Well we know it won't happen under this administration...

and for the record...

When the article was written by Krugman, Olberman, or Hannity, I can choose not to read it, assume it is wrong, and feel good about that assumption.

Same goes with AlJazeer, Algore and Allen Thicke, although Allen Thicke did have a good article about furniture refinishing that rivals the stuff by Ralph Kinney.



So don't go getting all Checky McArrogant on us Bob that we have to read your links in order to be cool.

Don't do that.

Yeah, this is how I feel.

I think pot odds' point is valid pretty often, just misapplied here.

Wouldn't be the first time.

What is it about you canadiens that you find it necessary to reaearch articles that attempt to portray the U.S. in a bad light

That article was a total non sequitur to the title. The health care system didnt kill his dad. Some idiot who didnt wash ghis hands did. I am not a particulary educated fellow, but I can smell biased BS a mile away.

After missing a rerun of taxi reading it, I still dont know what his solution is.

B y the way his dad was 83, what did he expect for his lousy 900 bucks, live forever?

Maybe I totally missed the point of the article, but guessing from the title, and the national debate going on, Im guessing he is for the government takeover of the healthcare system. If he thinks that will improve things, then he is just a moron with a large vocabulary.

Why the hell would someone spend 10 years in school, amass 100000 dollars of debt, just to work for the govt under a GS pay scale?

YEA I know, this post was mostly convoluted, incoherent, and grammatically faulty, but after going this far Ill be dammned if Im gonna delete it now,




P.S. My dad can beat up your dad.

You clearly read at least parts of the article, but somehow managed to miss basically everything actually important that he said. I don't know if that makes you more or less worthy of ridicule than someone like balloonboy who just flat out didn't read it and felt compelled to make comments anyway.

You don't have to do any guessing. He lays it out pretty clearly. Not surprisingly, your guess was wrong. Like way, way off.

You are bad at guessing......and writing.

True statement.

Could someone than sum it up for me?

LOL, I'll translate your post:

"I want to feel knowledgeable and argue about politics, but can't take 20 minutes from watching reruns of 30 year old sitcoms to discover some actual facts. Please give me a soundbite."

I can't decide whether I should sum it up for you and allow you to pretend to know something, or tell you to go read it. I'm leaning toward the latter.

Haha.
Jokes on you. I read it.

It was boring because I already know all that stuff.

But keep assuming things that you don't know about to pretend you know about things that you don't know, only assume you know.

We Americans are truly screwed.

The left and the right are all fiddling and screaming while our country burns.

I don't give a rat's ass about myself. I'm an old man.

It's my children I care about.

I'm calling Balloon Guy out.

I know you are a very funny man. I know that our positions are different. Last I heard you are going to be a grandfather. Last I checked you were a smart and rich man.

We don't need more flippant answers.

What are we leaving our children?

What examples are we setting?


How can we teach intelligent thought, tolerance, discussion, debate and civility in the environment today?

Answer me that Sir.

BalloonGuy, I answered one for you, sorry.

But I like his flippant answers.

That might be because I am also very flippant.

Plus, I just like the word flippant.

Flippant.

Well whenever I get overwhelmed by the politics of Washington and worry about things I remember a couple things:

1. America isn't Washington, it's Main street. Decent people are who fill this country, not backstabbing scheming politicians from both sides who are so short sighted that they litereally cannot think past their next re-election. Those decent people will always have a greater influence than they are given credit for.

2. In this same manner, I have friends who are conspiracy theorist, always convinced the government will use the army to screw us. But the army isn't the generals running around with their plans, it's the guy from the neighborhood, the guy who grew up watching MASH or Happy Days, who loves cars and fishing. These guys are also not going to just obey and screw their Uncles and Fathers.

3. One thing that America always shows is that we get bored with status quo, we like challenges. And when faced with a challenge, we hunker down and make it happen. We may not be quick about it, we may be kind of like a regular man, lazy until we feel we got to get it done, but when we do, we do it. We will not sit back and let everything happen, we will not go quietly into the night.

4. Hopefully we will screw the Chinese


These are some of the things that comfort me. Of course as a Christian, I have that entire avenue of comfort, knowing that there is a God who cares as well.


So in a way you can say I am really a panocrat...it's all going to pan out.

For you my answer is shorter.



I got mine...good luck boys

Now you got me on tilt. Taxi isnt just any old sitcom, and I did miss it reading the article. Since Rush Limbaugh would agree to some of his ideas, and Rufus Smelt would agree with others, I am totally lost in a paradox of thought which cant be $%#$@^%#$ with any degree of certainty or fluidity of outcome. It is what it is, and wont be changed, no matter how Intellectually seeming the related prose is , regardless the status of the author or willingness to pretend they understand it, the reader.

There is only a single answer to the health care question, and that is to not get sick.


P.S. Dont attempt to flame away, I am dumb as a jackass and proud of it.


SINE DIE

Nihil obstat

Imprimatur

Nobody ever uses the actual RodReynolds "oh" quote.

I wouldn't say nobody.

I thought I remembered a recent post of yours where you admonish someone for only posting 'oh' without it's full quoted glory. Something like you scored it a single but it would have been a double if it was quoted correctly.

Guess I'm mistaken.

I don't know what you're talking about

I mean, I know what you are referencing (as does Mr. Lanky Lad), but what does that have to do with you not using the real quote?


Edit: It's about time we got some serious conversation in this thread.

agreed

(EDIT)

I believe that was more than a couple of things.

(EDIT AGAIN)

Eisenhower's Farewell Speech:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/ike.htm

(EDIT..... I'm sleeping after this....... the critical part)

A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be mighty, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction.

Our military organization today bears little relation to that known by any of my predecessors in peacetime, or indeed by the fighting men of World War II or Korea.

Until the latest of our world conflicts, the United States had no armaments industry. American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But now we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense; we have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, three and a half million men and women are directly engaged in the defense establishment. We annually spend on military security more than the net income of all United States corporations.
American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But now we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense; we have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions.

This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence – economic, political, even spiritual – is felt in every city, every Statehouse, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.




Good night to all.

This is simply a post for Bob. Thanks for the read.

The first thing I am worried about when reading articles from these guys is that I know he's a major Dem. I don't like anyone that labels themselves as a Dem or Rep. We're getting way too far into dividing this country and have been doing so for many years. We started off with parties, moved to things like African-Americans, and so forth. We are no longer united as a people and we feel we have to choose sides. I registered as a Republican the first time I voted, ran as a Democrat in a local election, and now I've changed to (I), because I feel we need to do away with the two party system all together. I long for the day that we are all just Americans again. I wonder what that felt like? No box to check under race. The Democrats want a single payer program and I have seen Obama say that on video since 2003, yet he lies and says that he is not for that right now. That's just a way of saying that he does but he wants to trick the public into later. The Republicans have taken the "You LIE!" guy and now are burning up the phones since the saw 1.7 million (yes that's the number that foreign sources say were there by using satellite images) people and want to get all the cash they can for the poor bums that really think they have changed too. If you feel that either side is for you, you are a sad misguided soul. They aren't. They are for them and the history they want to be a part of in Washington. I had a friend visit his Republican Congressman on 9/11. He asked if he was going to support the Tea Party. He said, "Well, I don't know if yall will be here next year and we're really beat here and have our hands tied until we get one of the houses back." After he saw a million people out front, he told him on 9/12 that, "You know, we hear ya and we really need financial backing to win more seats back!" They both are complete failures and are full of nothing but cons from top to bottom. The top Dem is a liar! The top Rep is a LIAR! Is anyone really surprised? We need to clean all the houses with people that know how to run successful lives and in no way want to put more than one or two terms of their lives into government.

First, I see that he was not for Obama originally, so I can see that he's not just backing Obama.

http://www.campaignmoney.com/political/con...ll.asp?cycle=08

I also like this quote because it gives us some type of hope the understands we are not there yet with this bill:

"Everyone I know has at least one personal story about how screwed up our health-care system is; before spending (another) $1trillion or so on reform, we need a much clearer understanding of the causes of the problems we all experience."

I don't agree with this next quote because it is unconstitutional. I am leaning toward libertarian because I'm really tired of the government looking out for me. It's like hiring Bozo the Clown to guard my house in East LA. They have never had a single program that came in on budget and if they say it's over $1tril, it will be much higher. I don't think we should give the government the power to make us do anything until they know how to run their own banks. Did you know that they had their own bank at one time? The HOUSE bank? They wrote about 12,000 hot checks and had to be shut down. Amazing that they never had to go to jail for "Theft by check" though. No fees either. Still want them running your healthcare?

"Every American should be required to maintain an HSA, and contribute a minimum percentage of post-tax income, subject to a floor and a cap in total dollar contributions. The income percentage required should rise over a working life, as wages and wealth typically do."
"First, we should replace our current web of employer- and government-based insurance with a single program of catastrophic insurance open to all Americans—indeed, all Americans should be required to buy it—with fixed premiums based solely on age. This program would be best run as a single national pool, without underwriting for specific risk factors, and would ultimately replace Medicare, Medicaid, and private insurance. All Americans would be insured against catastrophic illness, throughout their lives."

I think he should change that to a non-government group should put this together and if you don't want insurance, then you don't have to have it. I don't think one person should pay more than another just because he makes more money. I also don't like that 95% of Americans pay tax and the other 5% don't, but that 5% gets more benefits than we do. I do not believe that we should put a value on life by earnings and therefore tax accordingly. A fair tax is the way to go. Base it on the national average. If it's say, $30k, give everyone a check for $3k no matter their income. Then place a sales tax of 10% on everything. You would be amazed at how much money would be made since there would be no more right offs for anyone. That way everyone would pay their fair share of taxes by the things they buy and not what they earn.


I really like these two statements:

"In fact, as a result of our fraying insurance system, you can already see some nascent features of a consumer-centered system. Since 2006, Wal-Mart has offered $4 prescriptions for a month’s supply of common generic medications. "

"Likewise, “concierge care,” or the “boutique” style of medical practice—in which physicians provide unlimited services and fast appointments in return for a fixed monthly or annual fee—is beginning to spread from the rich to the middle class. Qliance Medical Group, for instance, now operates clinics serving some 3,000 patients in the Seattle and Tacoma, Washington, areas, charging $49 to $79 a month for unlimited primary care, defined expansively. "

They show good old fashion American know how. In our area they have doctors that do this and it's wonderful! They come to your house like the old docs did when I was a lad. They have this for all types of doctors. It's great.

One last thing. Here's a little note for ya. If you have to have a surgery for any reason, call ahead and make an offer to pay cash. The bills are doubled most of the time to pay for those that don't. My wife and I called the hospitals to prepare for our future little one. The bill was going to be $12000. We made an offer of $6000 and they took it.

Bob, I can't say I totally agree with the article, but at least it wasn't one of those "Let's give the government the trillion now!" articles.