I have about t18k in chips, about 3k more than average, and villian is one of the chipleaders at t50kish. No reads, new to the table. Thoughts on all streets welcome, as I'm not sure about my raise preflop and the sizing of it vs my probable opponents. Don't think anyone behind me had better than an even stack with me. My handreplayer went gay after the last update so I don't have that.


Villain t50k
Hero t18k


Hero is MP2 with Blinds at 150-300

PF:
Villain limps for t300 at UTG+1, folds, Hero raises to t1200 in MP2, folds to Villain who calls.

Flop




Villain checks, Hero bets t1777, Villain calls.

Turn

Villain checks, Hero bets t2444, Villain raises to t6999. Hero?

What hands do you think he's limping with PF, that calls a flop bet, and then check raises a seemingly harmless turn?

Hands that beat you: 99, 22, Q9-QK, possibly AQo - also QQ-AA, but I highly doubt any of those hands would limp/call PF.
Hands that you beat: A9, 33-88 (minus 44), flush draws and straight draws

Tought spot, but I think I fold here. Probably giving villain too much credit, but it just seems like a slowplayed set.

i wouldnt raise as much preflop just to try and keep the pot small, and I think i call the turn and call the river bluff

slightly larger raise preflop. perfect annoying almost half pot on flop but i would have bet a little bigger on turn you still have 15K behind you this is a pretty small pot of you and a microscopic pot for the chip leader letting him see a slight oppurnity to bet into weakness maybe IDK as played it is a fold but i don't hate how you played it you tried to small ball it but i think we need to try and protect our pocket 10's just a little more preflop. As played it looks to me like a flopped set or an overpair trying to snap us off before the flush has a chance to river. Not poorly played because i doubt on turn he is make too many plays without outs on us so that makes the flush draw w A high decent possiblity, doesn't totally fit the preflop play but maybe he limp flatted AK or AQ thinking he could hide his hand if he hit. Void of reads cut your loses on turn, unfortunity this maybe a semibluff at us but without reads there is no way to know. What did you end up doing?

#1 Why bet smaller preflop? im all for small most the time but: with a limp UTG we need to cook him a little and turn up the heat some to make sure he isn't being silly, plus we really don't wanna play 10's multiway OOP and the smaller we go the better odds we give to the cutoff and the button (heck even the hijack). With a decent pocket pair preflop and 750 in the pot why not just try and pick the pot off right here? Raise at least what he did and or maybe a little more because we have a good hand but it is still weak enough that we need to try and protect it a little because taking some blinds down without resistance is a decent result
#2. I totally disagree with a flat and calling the river bluff. we only catch a busted flush and A9. we become Pay Off Wizards to JJ, AQ, QQ,KK, AA, (off chance but betting fits for 99 and 1010) and some of those will limp utg to pray for a good hand to play out and get huge value even thou they risk a lot of hands catching we simply pay off too much of his range

how do i delete this post? i rolled into above

4x feels like a pretty big raise to me, and I only say call the river because this looks like a bluff to me

How is 4x a big raise after a limp? I know you like 3xing w/ Jacks after like 3 limps but that doesn't mean it's good.

I guess it depends on what the normal opener for the table is. I know it is a little big but frankly i wanna shorten the hand, if we get play back from a 4x or 4.5 x bet we don't lose a ton on the later streets because our range stays very clear so we are forcing him to tell us where is hand is but we are plenty deep enough that it won't hurt us too much. I know it may not be the prefect play here but this could turn into an weird spot so when i feel that potential in a hand for things to get sticky i personally try and make it easier on myself to play it and a bigish raise preflop accomplishes that, it is my personal preference. If you raise smaller here you need to know you have better post flop play then villian so against an unknown i would make it easy on myself here. Cash game i standard open but when tourny life could be on the line, i try and do this but i hate tournies to begin with so you may be right. do you at least catch my drift?

agree and a big part is our position, we need to deny odds to the people left to act

PF is completely standard.

Anyone like checking back the turn for pot control and to induce from missed draws or 9x on the river? I realize that this means we can't charge the draw on the turn, but our hand really can't stand a raise, and 9x is not likely to c/c twice.

As played, I think this is a relatively easy fold. Wouldn't a draw c/r the flop instead of the turn?

Most villains are betting the river when we check back the turn. What's your range of river cards and villain bet sizing where we dont fold?

I'm calling any river 2-8 as long as he doesn't like stupid overshove. I'm calling a river 9 up to like 2/3 pot or so, a river Q maybe up to about the same, I'm folding an Ace, King or club river for sure, and probably folding a Jack river unless he bets < 1/2 pot. (I think JT and clubs are the biggest portion of his range here. Most villains c/c their draws and c/r a Q on this flop - I know thats not correct but thats how most play)

I actually flatted the turn c/r with your plan in mind and thinking that he couldn't really ever overbet-bluff the river unless a A, K or xclub hit. Unfortunately a Kh rivered and bet the size of my stack and I folded.

With no reads I probably check the turn, and call small river bets from the villain. For all you know this guy is crazy and has something like Q9 here. No reason to get married to TT /w an over and some resistance.

Argh...hate this spot.

I think I'm betting a little more on the flop. When it gets to you, there is 750. You add 1200. It's not 1950, giving Villain better than 2:1 to call you and see 3 more cards. For a big stack, this is a good spot with speculative hands, esp if he's considering screwing with you post-flop with almost anything.

Preflop, I'm betting 1550-1750. I suppose flatting is an option, if you like playing post-flop. You have position, but it's riskier because he'll likely be betting at you harder, although you can choose not to re-raise and try and control the pot.

On the flop, I think I'm checking behind, as played. He really could have any Broadway card and, AFAIC, assholes always hit against me :-). So, you peel one off and...

A 4 comes...If he checks, then you can raise him, if you're feeling bold or simply call and see the river.

I'm guessing this clown had Q9s for flopped 2 pair. It's speculative and his turn re-raise seems designed to get people off the flush draw.

Edit: The c/r doesn't feel like a bluff to me, but that doesn't mean it isn't so. At that point, I think flatting the turn c/r is asking for trouble, because you're showing weakness. If you're going to make a stand here (esp if you think it's a bluff), it's time to shove.

I don't understand this post at all. Hero was the one who raised PF, so how can he flat or reraise?
Checking behind this flop is burning money. You miss value from 32509235098 draws and 9x.
On the turn, how can Hero "raise" villain if villain checks? Or how can Hero even call, for that matter?
After the c/r, you say that calling is showing weakness - how is that exactly? You then say that if you think villain is bluffing, that you should shove. DUCY that is terrible advice?

Some of my comments are from speculating certain things...Some of them have to do with pot control, which will be important if you don't take it down pf.

1. Villain limped first.
1A. Flatting = Limping
2. Checking behind is weak, but you see another card and leaves the pot small-ish and you can make a move depending on Villains bet.
3. Hero can raise Villain if Villain bets first. This scenario is suppositon. It also implies Hero can just call.
4. Why wouldn't you re-raise here, then? I think it's weak to bet and then call a re-raise when Villain has a massive stack. Do you want to give him a opportunity to hit something else or fire another tournament life commiting bet in on you? Which is what happened?

Check back the turn for pot control. After you bet and he raises, what do you honestly beat here? I mean, that's a weird line to take with a flushdraw or random air. Just dump it.

Why would JT raise that turn when you're continually betting into him? Or a fd for that matter?

So concensus on the point that if I bet the turn vs checkback, I should've folded to the raise?

Very strong reasoning, but the flop is so drawy that I can't imagine a set or two pair just c/c. Don't think I had a super-aggro image or anything, and we have a good hand against a 9x, x being a draw card.

2. Checking behind is insanely weak, gives up control of the hand and loses you money. Why do you need to see another card? Your hand is made and unlikely to improve. Are you in the habit of letting villains draw for free?

4. If you re-raise, Villain is only calling with hands that beat you and is folding every hand you beat. Unless you have some super-specific read that he would both check-raise a weak Q and then fold it to a shove, then there is absolutely no point to shoving. If he is bluffing, you would much rather just call his turn c/r and then call another river bluff.

Certainly good and valid points and I appreciate the POV, as it can only improve my game. FWIW, I'm not offering "advice", I'm discussing various lines and exploring possiblities.

I'm thinking control of the hand was lost when Villain called the weak PF raise and a Q came on the flop, regardless of position. Stronger PF and flop bets would likely retain control better and garner better information, but my "scenarios" (which I don't claim are the way to go, just options) are stuck with the "as played" formula, in which we have to take into account the fact that the Villain has a huge stack and can afford to screw with us and, imo, we have to give him credit for some kind of hand, regardles of the flop.

I agree checking behind is weak, but it could just as easily save you chips against a LAG bigstack that hit. I also tend to agree with 4, but my shove was predicated on the read that Villain was weak already and I actually think he may call you with a weaker hand. At the same time, I also think it's pointless to call his re-raise. I'd rather fold at that point and wait for a better spot.

Why do we have to give him credit? Most flops miss most hands.



If villain calls a 3bet shove with worse than TT here, stalk him and follow him to every single poker game he plays ever.