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BeaverStyle
No history with villain. Looked up his OPR stats and saw he had 69k in prizes, 27k in profit for a 65% ROI.

Not that all that matters much, but it shows he's probably a competent player. Hand in question:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, 4.4 Tournament, 10/20 Blinds (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO (t3170)
Button (t1490)
SB (t1480)
BB (t1360)
UTG (t1500)
UTG+1 (t1500)
Hero (MP1) (t1500)
MP2 (t1500)

Hero's M: 50.00

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Q icon_suit_spade.gif, Q icon_suit_heart.gif
UTG calls t20, UTG+1 bets t120, Hero raises to t360, 4 folds, BB calls t340, 1 fold, UTG+1 raises to t1500 (All-In), Hero ??????

What's your play and why?
MaxStPolish
Prolly fold only because of how early it is in the tourney. I just don't think a 'smart' player would see any fold equity in a 4BB this early in a 4.40. Moreover, I don't think he wants to go blind preflop with thin to no FE with JJ/AK or less. I would think in a 4.40, he'd even take a flop with KK to make sure he doesn't get binked, and if so, gets out with a lot of life left. So it's almost certain he is jamming the pot AA assuming he won't be able to shake either of you regardless, since you are 20-25% committed, and in a 4.40.

I know we need to assign a range. But, in this case it's AA to AA, suits pending. Anything else, save for possibly KK would just be a shock to me.
AimHigher
I think he can easily be value shipping JJ/AK on the basis that we're probably some random 4.40 drooler and the BB overcalled.

Call.
XXEddie
QUOTE (MaxStPolish @ Thursday, August 27th, 2009, 11:32 AM) *
Prolly fold only because of how early it is in the tourney. I just don't think a 'smart' player would see any fold equity in a 4BB this early in a 4.40. Moreover, I don't think he wants to go blind preflop with thin to no FE with JJ/AK or less. I would think in a 4.40, he'd even take a flop with KK to make sure he doesn't get binked, and if so, gets out with a lot of life left. So it's almost certain he is jamming the pot AA assuming he won't be able to shake either of you regardless, since you are 20-25% committed, and in a 4.40.

I know we need to assign a range. But, in this case it's AA to AA, suits pending. Anything else, save for possibly KK would just be a shock to me.



LOL at this. Beaver, did you look up his OPR during the hand or after. Against an unknown I instacall and giggle when he tables ATo. Why is a player with 27k in profit playing a $4.40 anyway...? He maybe have started fresh, or just messing around. I think I call and expect to see TT+, AQo+.

If you bust early in a $4.40 you can easily join another. However, doubling up early makes it MUCH easier to go deep. I call.
BeaverStyle
QUOTE (XXEddie @ Thursday, August 27th, 2009, 2:32 PM) *
LOL at this. Beaver, did you look up his OPR during the hand or after. Against an unknown I instacall and giggle when he tables ATo. Why is a player with 27k in profit playing a $4.40 anyway...? He maybe have started fresh, or just messing around. I think I call and expect to see TT+, AQo+.

If you bust early in a $4.40 you can easily join another. However, doubling up early makes it MUCH easier to go deep. I call.

I looked it up during the hand. It IS a $4.40.... so obviously the players are usually terrible. This early in a $4.40, I usually do see a lot of bat-shit crazy plays that would lead me to play QQ+, AK like the nuts pre-flop.

FTR, any other tourney, I would expect his 4b shove to be only KK, AA or AK. Certain players in $4.40's will have the same range as this (such as myself), but the majority would shove here w/ a much wider range.
MaxStPolish
QUOTE (XXEddie @ Thursday, August 27th, 2009, 1:32 PM) *
LOL at this. Beaver, did you look up his OPR during the hand or after. Against an unknown I instacall and giggle when he tables ATo. Why is a player with 27k in profit playing a $4.40 anyway...? He maybe have started fresh, or just messing around. I think I call and expect to see TT+, AQo+.

If you bust early in a $4.40 you can easily join another. However, doubling up early makes it MUCH easier to go deep. I call.


LOL at this.

My answer is based on the fact that our villain appears to be a very good thinking player AND under the assumption that we don't snap call because "it's only a tournament, you can easily join another". Hence I give a thinking response, assuming that you are trying to do yoru best in this tourney, like any other. I do call this 99% of the time....but based on the quick recon OP makes of the villian, you'd be daft to not visualize a more realistic 4 bet range I'd think. I do agree that "it's just a 4.40", etc. etc. etc. but still.
XXEddie
QUOTE (MaxStPolish @ Thursday, August 27th, 2009, 12:59 PM) *
LOL at this.

My answer is based on the fact that our villain appears to be a very good thinking player AND under the assumption that we don't snap call because "it's only a tournament, you can easily join another". Hence I give a thinking response, assuming that you are trying to do yoru best in this tourney, like any other. I do call this 99% of the time....but based on the quick recon OP makes of the villian, you'd be daft to not visualize a more realistic 4 bet range I'd think. I do agree that "it's just a 4.40", etc. etc. etc. but still.

Additionally, I personally flat here in a 4.40 with KK to see if an A hits the flop, as it's near 100% in the 2nd hand of a 4.40 that one of these two villains, if not both, are carrying an ace. And it's 100% that if they catch their ace on the flop, they aren't folding. It's +EV.



You lose so much value flatting with KK, AINEC. So many people in $4.40s will stack of with any PP, any A, even hands like KQ, KJ, and QJ. Letting them see, and most likely, a flop just cost you 1200+ chips.

Playing scared won't win you a $4.40, ever.
BeaverStyle
QUOTE (XXEddie @ Thursday, August 27th, 2009, 3:25 PM) *
You lose so much value flatting with KK, AINEC. So many people in $4.40s will stack of with any PP, any A, even hands like KQ, KJ, and QJ. Letting them see, and most likely, a flop just cost you 1200+ chips.

Playing scared won't win you a $4.40, ever.

I think maxstpolish was saying that other players might flat w/ KK, not advocating it as a strategy to use. Although, I could be wrong... but yeah, flatting w/ KK there would be super bad.
MaxStPolish
QUOTE (BeaverStyle @ Thursday, August 27th, 2009, 2:40 PM) *
I think maxstpolish was saying that other players might flat w/ KK, not advocating it as a strategy to use. Although, I could be wrong... but yeah, flatting w/ KK there would be super bad.


I wasn't, but you guys are clearly right now that i think of it with half a brain.
CoolHandKai
QUOTE (MaxStPolish @ Thursday, August 27th, 2009, 6:32 PM) *
I know we need to assign a range. But, in this case it's AA to AA, suits pending. Anything else, save for possibly KK would just be a shock to me.


I'd say the range is AA, KK and AK. But even in the best case scenario AK it's more or less a coinflip, which just isn't worth it at this stage of the tournament. It's a fold and a note who witnessed the fold - people seem to be getting ideas that they can bluff push you around if you make a sensible fold.
AimHigher
QUOTE (CoolHandKai @ Thursday, August 27th, 2009, 9:42 PM) *
I'd say the range is AA, KK and AK. But even in the best case scenario AK it's more or less a coinflip, which just isn't worth it at this stage of the tournament. It's a fold and a note who witnessed the fold - people seem to be getting ideas that they can bluff push you around if you make a sensible fold.

If his range is exactly AA/KK/AK then it's a call because we're getting laid 2:1 and we have way more than 33% equity.

CODE
    equity     win     tie           pots won     pots tied    
Hand 0:     60.143%      59.92%     00.22%           28730686        104399.00   { KK+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 1:     39.857%      39.64%     00.22%           19005028        104399.00   { QcQd }
outsider13
I agree with the others. It's a 4.40, it's QQ, I'm never folding.......ever. Assigning a AA,KK, AK range here is ridiculous. I've seen some retards do this with atc in these. I would assign a top 5-7% range here, but a top 2% not so much. I call this pretty much 100% of the time, unless I misclick.
TrueAce13
My rule of anything in small stakes tourneys (~$11 and under)...I never fold AA, KK, AK, QQ PF....like there has to be something really crazy.

Yeah its a 4.40...never folding!
HighwayStar
dont 3 bet it pre if you plan to fold to his shove.

Also if he's a big winner I'd say a decent estimate of his range his TT/JJ+ AQs+ AKo. Prob wider than you'd think.
rrumsey
does anyone think that if he is a good player and has that much in profits that he could be doing this slightly light due to him underplaying his bankroll being prob. hyper deep rolled and just wanted to coin flip early? IDK i still hate life and fold but it really is a crappy spot that early. I do think we see AKs so much here thou!
DonkSlayer
Snapcall, villain's range will be a lot wider than AA/KK here against typically poor 4.40 opponents.
BeaverStyle
Results: Hero decides to "hero" fold and soul-read opponent as having KK/AA. BB makes the call of the all in w/ 10 8 os (...............O_o..............) and re-shoving opponent has AKs. Flop comes 10 10 5, Turn K, River 8.
BeaverStyle
DOUBLEPOSTAMENTS
Poker Addict
QUOTE (outsider13 @ Thursday, August 27th, 2009, 4:06 PM) *
I agree with the others. It's a 4.40, it's QQ, I'm never folding.......ever.

Can't be results oriented.

I am NEVER folding QQ in a 4.40 this early.

All of the ranges I have seen are way too tight for a random, unknown in a 4.40. I have seen shoves with KQ, 22, 9Tcc.
XXEddie
I originally didnt even notice that the BB donk called...Makes it an easier shove. That much more dead money
cdipierr
Shove AINEC for all the reasons already mentioned.
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