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Full Version: Am I Turning My Hand Into A Bluff On River
FCP Poker Forum > Poker Strategy Forum > No Limit Texas Hold'em Cash Games
droberts
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Hand Converter from HandHistoryConverter.com

SB ($2.99)
BB ($8.20)
UTG ($4.95)
UTG+1 ($7.80)
MP1 ($5.12)
Hero (MP2) ($10.08)
CO ($11.95)
Button ($4.59)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 9, 9
1 fold, UTG+1 bets $0.15, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.15, 1 fold, Button calls $0.15, 2 folds

Flop: ($0.52) Q, 6, 8 (3 players)
UTG+1 bets $0.15, Hero calls $0.15, Button calls $0.15

Turn: ($0.97) 7 (3 players)
UTG+1 bets $0.15, Hero raises to $0.55, Button calls $0.55, UTG+1 calls $0.40

River: ($2.62) 3 (3 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $1.75, 2 folds

Total pot: $2.62 | Rake: $0.10


i didnt 3 bet preflop cuz i was treating this as a mid pair and wanted to set mine. On the flop i think i maybe should have raised to find out where i was but i wanted to see what the button did and maybe re-evaluate turn. On the Turn i felt UTG+1 was weak and that button was on a draw or a weakish queen. i dont think i raised enough and their calls were probly getting good odds , but on river in hindsight i dont know how my line looks.. obvious leak.. help please?
Syntonic
Why do you feel that UTG+1 was weak? He raised from early position and fired twice into two opponents.

The turn raise is just confusing to me. I mean, you're repping a flush now, but I don't think he's going to going to fold AQ or KQ, especially at these limits. Ok, you did a weird raise on the turn and got TWO callers. All you have is second pair.

Does anyone else raise the flop?
jmbreslin
I think you were a bit lost from the beginning and as a result put yourself into a risky position at the end. You said you played the 99 for set value but then decided to continue with the hand when you missed your set. You need to be clear about why you're playing a hand from the start.

As played I would raise the flop because you have two opponents and the flop is coordinated. By calling the preflop raise and then raising that flop you could be representing a good Q, which might get a fold from a mediocre Q or a hand like TT. I'd rather make a move to take it down on the flop than get sucked into calling down and trying to make a move later when doing so will require larger bets.
droberts
"Why do you feel that UTG+1 was weak? He raised from early position and fired twice into two opponents.

The turn raise is just confusing to me. I mean, you're repping a flush now, but I don't think he's going to going to fold AQ or KQ, especially at these limits. Ok, you did a weird raise on the turn and got TWO callers. All you have is second pair."



well obviously i posted this cause i said i needed help... if i knew what was goin on in the hand i wouldnt have posted and patted myself on the back for a good play... not trying to get defensive but im just posting to help improve my abilities and such cuz i want to learn and get better.
DemonDonk
Don't raise for information. It's a leak.
Dubey
QUOTE (jmbreslin @ Friday, July 24th, 2009, 6:21 AM) *
I think you were a bit lost from the beginning and as a result put yourself into a risky position at the end. You said you played the 99 for set value but then decided to continue with the hand when you missed your set. You need to be clear about why you're playing a hand from the start.



I kind of disagree with this. We can intend to play for set value (although 99 has more value than that here, IMO), and the circumstances can change in such a way that we play it unimproved for value. (ie. utg+1 makes 2 weak-ass bets + we pick up a redraw)

I actually don't hate raising the turn here. I think there's a pretty good chance we are ahead but there are a ton of bad cards that can come on the river. Your biggest mistake was not raising enough, make it $1 to go.


As played, just check the river. One of the flush draws got there. Yes, you turned your hand into a bluff in the sense that you are only getting called when you are beat, but you aren't really folding out anything that YOU beat, so betting is pointless. just check and hope to see a showdown.
droberts
"Don't raise for information. It's a leak."


are u suggesting i should c/c all streets in some situations? say i have AQ raise PF and flop TPTK and villain leads out.. i just call all streets so that i dont leak? or would that be raising for value in said situation?
Dubey
QUOTE (droberts @ Friday, July 24th, 2009, 8:40 AM) *
"Don't raise for information. It's a leak."


are u suggesting i should c/c all streets in some situations? say i have AQ raise PF and flop TPTK and villain leads out.. i just call all streets so that i dont leak? or would that be raising for value in said situation?




you will generally be raising for one of these three reasons:

1. Value
2. protect a vulnerable hand
3. bluff

you will GET information from how your opponent reacts to the raise, but you should never raise 'just to see where you're at', your bets/raises should have an alternate purpose.
Syntonic
QUOTE (droberts @ Friday, July 24th, 2009, 7:13 AM) *
"Why do you feel that UTG+1 was weak? He raised from early position and fired twice into two opponents.

The turn raise is just confusing to me. I mean, you're repping a flush now, but I don't think he's going to going to fold AQ or KQ, especially at these limits. Ok, you did a weird raise on the turn and got TWO callers. All you have is second pair."



well obviously i posted this cause i said i needed help... if i knew what was goin on in the hand i wouldnt have posted and patted myself on the back for a good play... not trying to get defensive but im just posting to help improve my abilities and such cuz i want to learn and get better.


I wasn't attacking you at all, I was just asking why you went through that process of 'thinking the opponent was weak'. If you can provide a reasonable / likely story for your line of thinking, then you should be able to justify your actions in the hand. I'm not saying that you are wrong (although I doubt he is weak), but you shouldn't just rely on gut feelings - have reasons for why you think things about your opponent. When your opponent makes odd plays that don't make any sense and you can't figure out what kind of hand he could have, chances are, he's bluffing.

Here are some things about the opponent that we know:
1. He raised from early position. This alone shows strength.
2. He bet on the flop into two opponents out of position. Ok fine, this could just be a continuation bet. It's hard to tell without any reads on the opponent. The bet size is also really small. Sometimes this means that he's very strong, and other times it's just a weak bet. I would lead more towards strength because he's OOP and betting. I think if you said "I felt like my opponent was weak because he bets were small", then you would have a better argument.
3. He bet AGAIN on the turn into two callers OOP.

I'm not sure the best way to play this hand.

My thinking is a little biased because how things turned out, he probably has like 10s or Js. You should have removed the outcome on the river. Anyways, I'm ok with raising on the flop. If he calls, you can make the decision if he's all with a pair like JJ or even just an 8, or if he has a Q. Either way, he'll check most turns and you'll be in position.
droberts
i like that response better... thank you... gives me understanding into how someone would think/act upon the hand. I really didnt think of what he might have. i did kind of go with that he was weak with his bet sizes into the pot. i felt he might bet more on the turn if he had a strong hand since he did have 2 callers on flop and board was a little drawy. i just know i need help with my game and some explanation with responses always helps and is very appreciated.
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