QQ in the BB - UTG raises MP reraises Button Flats - Hero?

Note that both the reraiser and myself are very deep stacked atm while the button flatter is semi-short.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

UTG+1 ($220.80)
MP1 ($224.20)
MP2 ($381.40)
MP3 ($200)
CO ($274.55)
Button ($117.65)
SB ($200)
Yoda (BB) ($360.55)
UTG ($208.25)

Preflop: Yoda is BB with Q, Q
UTG bets $7, 2 folds, MP2 raises to $22, 2 folds, Button calls $22, 1 fold, Yoda ??

if ever a post needed reads or stats, this would be one of them

Unfortunately I was not running a HUD and have no stats. But...

The MP reraiser had been playing a LAG style. Sometimes brilliantly, sometimes dumb. You could classify him as having fancy play syndrome. But every 2nd or 3rd time he'd show down the goods, so it's not a sure case of "no way this guy has anything i'm definitely popping".

He was probably somewhere between 30/25 and 25/20.

Other 2 guys, nothing out of the ordinary.

In that case, I'm voting for a flat call. I don't think you want to reraise and get shoved over.

What is our image?


I think I raise to $65-75 here and see what happens. Assuming UTG is competent (ie, he wouldn't spazz with AK), I think we can fold if he shoves, given the action. I think the same thing applies for MP2.

We can't smooth call out of position unless we are just set-mining, and we can't assume we are behind given the action and the players involved. Raising to 75 gives everybody the wrong odds to set-mine. Also, assuming our image is tight, we aren't going to have anybody spazz out with JJ or AK and have to make an incorrect fold.

I'd agree if the 3-bettor was a straightforward player. Given that he is a LAG, and we crush his range, and the other 2 don't have a very defined range yet, we have to raise.

I wouldn't say I had a tight image. I frequently call single raises in position with speculative hands and will often show down a 7-8 or 10-Q sooted. But I wasn't playing completely loose/out of line either.

I vote this

The button flatting there with his stack size is very strong and based on Yoda's read, he hasn't been doing anything out of the ordinary. I despise 4-betting/folding as I think we get the same info by flatting. UTG gets to close the action so if he reraises, we can fold our hand since he also has not been doing anything strange.

Or at least if UTG does reraise, we can see what the other players do before we act.

i wanna say flat but it could play out so bad if we don't 4-bet because we just don't know where we stand yet and we are deep enough to do this but a tough spot and i think giving this action Q's are probably the bottom of our range

4bet and get it in or w/e. The only other deep stack is the the LAG dude. It looks like your squeezing and you actually have close to the top of your range, button is probably a terrible player because he has a half stack UTG can really only play AA once you 4bet here so you squeeze out a ton of his pf range as well.

Seems like a great spot to 4bet and get heads up with the LAG player or two just get 100bbs in pf with QQ. Both of those situations seem fine with me. Better than playing QQ for set value. I think it's much much better to play a big pot with QQ pf 200bbs deep than to either call and look for set value or to call and play a big pot post flop with QQ as an over pair out of position.

+1 def a -EV to call too many things can go so wrong so quick in a multiway pot with Q's

I'm not sure I understand this. It's doubtful even a LAG reraiser is going to get it in preflop this deep with something worse than Hero's QQ, so wouldn't you rather play postflop against his wider range and give him an opportunity to commit more chips postflop with the part of his range Hero beats (JJ/AK)?

It's really difficult to play OOP 200bbs deep against a Laggy player. It's not like we can keep the pot small or something, it's already big and we're OOP. We can get bluffed easily, we can get value towned easily. The only way we win is if we hit a Q or he just gives us the pot by not betting. It's turning QQ into a bluff catcher and I don't think we should do that.

I'm not adamant about my decision though, I think it's a tough hand.

I just think if we know this guy's 3betting range is wide, then QQ is obv better than his 3betting range and we should 4bet for value because our hand doesn't play well OOP and it doesn't flop well. I'd 4bet QQ-AA and AK here. I'd probably fold every thing else and flat nothing. It's not like by flatting pf we disguise our hand at all any ways. We say "I've got JJ or QQ and didn't like any options so decided to hit the call button." We could flat with KK or AA to balance there but I think it's a little too crazy with how deep we are.

Agree with everything you posted but I think this statement applies to the LAG in MP2 as well, which is why I think we would have to fold to a shove against UTG or MP2, obv not button. Also, we are not at the top of our range, we are at the very bottom of it, which is why we can fold to a shove.



Still, there's a ton of value in 4-betting here and a lot of things can happen that don't include UTG or MP2 5-bet shoving; Most of them are good for us.

Great discussion, I was torn as well between popping it again and flatting. Results/Thoughts below


But after hitting the time bank for a bit the few thoughts that went through my head in the limited time available all pushed me towards reraise

1) I did not want a flop with all 4 people in and being completely out of position
2) I felt like our MP2 LAG player had a wide enough range that this definitely wasn't a case of "he almost has to have AA/KK/AK". I put him more on a likely range of 99-AA and AK-A10, but any other crazy hand was also not out of the question.
3) Then I think #1 reentered my head and I envisioned a number of bad/dangerous flops - and just being first to act with a short stack on the button could lead to so many bad scenarios.

I felt if I 4bet and UTG or MP2 shoved, then I could still get out of there pre flop almost sure of being behind.

But if I flat and the flop is non threatening, 2-5-10 for instance...I probably end up getting the money in vs a KK or AA and getting crushed.

So in the end - I reraised to $62 and everybody folded. I know, boring/non eventful right? But I think I was happy they folded

I think you made the right play

First, the only info we have on him is that he's been playing a laggy style. But that doesn't necessarily mean he 3-bets wide, especially since he's in MP against a UTG raise. I'd feel much more confident that his range is wide if he was 3-betting from the Button against a HJ or CO raise.

Second, I'm still confused about the concept of 4-betting for value here. The only way we 4-bet for value is if we know he's likely to call with the lower part of his 3-betting range, and we have no reason to believe that he will. Even if he's 3-betting as low as TT+ and AJ+ here, he still may only call our 4-bet with the top part of his range. If that's the case, 4-betting for value doesn't make sense.

Is your hand ahead of his 3betting range? Then 4bet. You'll show a profit, I promise.

I'm not great at the math side of poker, I understand how to do most of it, but I know if you reraise with exact same range as someone is raising with that it is profitable. They are either going to fold too much so you make money off of that or they are going to play flops OOP without the betting lead and be at a disadvantage. This hand isn't the exact same cuz we aren't in position, but if this guys 3betting range is something like TT+ AQ+ which is reasonable, then 4betting QQ here is profitable, even if he folds his entire range that is behind us. We pick up all of the dead money from when he folds. By flatting it we are letting worse hands play for cheaper with hands to outdraw us.

If you knew he had AJ and would fold to a reraise, would you call and possibly let him hit an A or would you reraise, even if you knew he'd fold 100%?

I'd give him a wider 3-bet range than that, and I also think we get value from a decent chunk of his range, at the wrong price (for him).

However, I think a large bit of our 4-bet value on this hand actually comes from the Button, who has already cold called 20% of his stack and will likely call/shove with a much wider range, that we fare very well against.

Plus, there is the money that is already in the pot, that is not insignificant.

I would agree that the money in the pot is a good argument for 4-betting but if you're 4-betting with the hopes of taking down the pot, that's not really a value bet. If I knew he had AJ and would fold 100% I would probably still 4-bet because of the 25BB that is sitting in the pot. But if you take Button out of the picture (assume he folded), then I'd much rather flat and let the LAG hang himself postflop.

I puked seeing this. I would probably fk up and call cuz i is a scaredy biatch. Calling is lighting money on fire tho bc u can only get yourself in bad situations on any flop w/o a Q.

I'm not sure I could 4bet and call though. Are we profitable against a range of exactly AA, KK, and AK here? Is there that much dead money?

If button is out of the picture then it becomes closer to a call, but still probably correct to 4-bet. But, as is, we aren't necessarily 'hoping for everyone to fold'. Everyone folding is not a bad scenario, but there are other good scenarios too; MP2 smooth calling without correct odds, Button calling/shoving with a much worse range than ours, etc..