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jmbreslin
Anyone know of any good literature, electronic or hard copy, on the topic of value betting? I think I've come to the realization that one of my cash game weaknesses is getting full value when I'm ahead to offset my losses. More specifically, I think I need help on bet sizing and knowing when to continue driving hands vs pulling back.
Temporary Nuts
QUOTE (jmbreslin @ Wednesday, July 15th, 2009, 10:05 PM) *
Anyone know of any good literature, electronic or hard copy, on the topic of value betting? I think I've come to the realization that one of my cash game weaknesses is getting full value when I'm ahead to offset my losses. More specifically, I think I need help on bet sizing and knowing when to continue driving hands vs pulling back.


Unfortunately I don't know anything specific to value betting.

As far as bet sizing, you need to be able to construct a reasonable range (though not complete like we do here) on the fly and basically figure out what you have to do to max out value from hands that are behind you versus minimizing the damage from hands that have you crushed. When in doubt 3/4ths of the pot is good.

One thing that may help you is checking behind on the turn in position more often, even with a solid hand. This opens up a lot of most villains river range, and you have to do less value betting, but more thin calling which often times can be easier. Do not be afraid of free cards in NL.

The other thing you have to realize, against thinking opponents, is when your line looks draw heavy, when to make a large value bet with 2nd pair or top pair no kicker. A lot of 2nd level opponents will see large river bets and call with nearly any bluff catcher because a large river bet on a "busted" draw obviously means a set or air to them.

Value betting really comes from paying attention to stats. The more passive they are, the more you should be betting and the thinner you should be betting (both in tandom). The more aggressive they are, the more you should be enticing them to come over the top with "weak" bets, or get them to make bluffs/semi-bluffs.
rrumsey
great post temp nuts. Also being able to id who if any the calling stations are is a great way because with them you can just pot with good hands and not have to worry about raises and bet sizing because a calling station by nature with simply call when they decide they have a "decent" hand. These are the players that will not let themselves be bluffed out of hands, or at least that is what they think.
PS Temp nuts about thinking players is spot on don't forget that every player plays different and your observations of hands and what sizes they call weak gives you the picture of what you can do and try to put yourself in there shoes based objectively on what you have been doing. Good bet sizing is mostly a trial by error thing you will get the hand you play enough
tskillz187
QUOTE (Temporary Nuts @ Wednesday, July 15th, 2009, 11:21 PM) *
basically figure out what you have to do to max out value from hands that are behind you versus minimizing the damage from hands that have you crushed. When in doubt 3/4ths of the pot is good.

One thing that may help you is checking behind on the turn in position more often, even with a solid hand. This opens up a lot of most villains river range, and you have to do less value betting, but more thin calling which often times can be easier. Do not be afraid of free cards in NL.


Kinda disagree with this stuff. I think the rest of the post is really solid though and I wouldn't have put in that much effort smile.gif

I'll post more tmrw pretty exhausted.
jmbreslin
If there isn't much written then perhaps we can have a good discussion here.

I've been working on increasing my raise and bet sizes because I think they've been too small (probably a holdover from my SnG play). I've noticed that my postflop bets are often in the 1/2-2/3 pot range (depending on texture, # of villains, etc) so I've just started increasing them to 3/4 pot and higher. I play at .02-.05 where most players are loose-passive stations, so I need to really punish them for seeing flops and calling light.

I think I have a pretty good feel for how to handle laggy players, it's the LP's that I struggle with because it's so hard to know whether you're getting value from a weaker hand or betting into a monster. But I have been reading some stuff on 2+2 that has been helpful. There is a thread in the full ring micro NLHE forum (it may also exist elsewhere but I'm not sure) called the "concept of the week," where an experienced player writes an article on a specific topic each week. There have been some good ones on topics like hand-reading, interpreting stats, and so on. There was a brief one on value-betting, which did a series of ev calculations to show how betting three streets with TPMK against a LP is much higher ev than keeping the pot small. The point was to illustrate that even if the player has a better kicker or outdraws you a certain % of the time, value betting is +ev.
mtdesmoines
QUOTE (Temporary Nuts @ Wednesday, July 15th, 2009, 10:21 PM) *
Unfortunately I don't know anything specific to value betting. As far as bet sizing, you need to be able to construct a reasonable range (though not complete like we do here) on the fly and basically figure out what you have to do to max out value from hands that are behind you versus minimizing the damage from hands that have you crushed. When in doubt 3/4ths of the pot is good.

One thing that may help you is checking behind on the turn in position more often, even with a solid hand. This opens up a lot of most villains river range, and you have to do less value betting, but more thin calling which often times can be easier. Do not be afraid of free cards in NL.

The other thing you have to realize, against thinking opponents, is when your line looks draw heavy, when to make a large value bet with 2nd pair or top pair no kicker. A lot of 2nd level opponents will see large river bets and call with nearly any bluff catcher because a large river bet on a "busted" draw obviously means a set or air to them.

Value betting really comes from paying attention to stats. The more passive they are, the more you should be betting and the thinner you should be betting (both in tandom). The more aggressive they are, the more you should be enticing them to come over the top with "weak" bets, or get them to make bluffs/semi-bluffs.


1st paragraph: A lot of people are going to say to just keep bet sizing very, very consistent, because variance in bet sizing usually become a strong tell and makes you exploitable.

Bolded: I think the turn is the most critical street in NL, at least the way the game plays out most of the time. River action tends to be so large because of the way pot size grows and bets are made in NL, that our major decisions/commitment to our hands are (should?) actually made on the turn. Better players "turn the clock back" to the flop, but most garden variety NL players are passive enough that the most important action takes place on the turn.

3rd paragraph: "thinking opponents" .... I love shoving big hands into bluff catchers/table cops on the river when draws miss. It's like finding a sack of full of money.

4th paragraph: yah, just identify your villain. Of course, all this discussion seems to be assuming that the circumstance is that we got the pot HU PF or on the flop. There is probably still some discussion left about multi-way pot value betting.
trystero
bet and fold more on the river as opposed to calling

e.g. raised pot, you have QJ, board is K33rQ5 and your opponent is bad. He called your c/bet otf and it's on you at the river. Just bet your hand, his range includes ace-high/kings/3x/55/worse pairs/floated queens like QT. You want to get value from worse pairs and ace-high, so bet an amount which you think those hands will call, perhaps 1/2 pot, or 2/3 pot, whatever. You don't want to bet ~pot because then you're liable to only be called by better hands, unless you're against someone who can hand-read somewhat and figure you need at least a king. By betting a modest amount, you get value when ahead, and don't lose much when behind to a king (which probably will not raise) or AQ, and if you ARE raised then you can safely fold knowing you were beaten. C/c here is bad because it makes your hand a bluff-catcher, and given villain's passivity on the turn you don't have any real reason for why he's going to try and steal the pot (had he bet the turn you can perhaps give him more credit for floating / bluffing).

Players who worry about shit like being bluff raised are in the wrong games, especially at the micros. You don't run into Teh Tuff Regz as much as you would at 200nl. I know a guy at 2+2 who challenged himself to build a BR from scratch, and he wouldn't c/bet the above board because he was so used to being floated. But at the micros, as he soon learned, that's a profitable spot to c/bet simply because your opponents are mostly playing fit or fold, and the board doesn't connect with his incredibly wide range.

on the turn, in general, when you have a good hand like an overpair or TPTK, even TPGK, bet until you're told otherwise. E.g. you hold KQ on a Q98 board, you bet flop, call, turn is a three, check, bet every single time. You're going for 3 streets against worse pairs, and you want to extract from random combo draws like T9. When raised you have a pretty trivial fold unless your opponent is some spazztard. Hell double-barrel pairs which aren't even that relevant to the board. People call you down so lightly that you can play almost perfect poker in position by just betting your modest holdings.
jmbreslin
QUOTE (trystero @ Friday, July 17th, 2009, 9:42 AM) *
on the turn, in general, when you have a good hand like an overpair or TPTK, even TPGK, bet until you're told otherwise. E.g. you hold KQ on a Q98 board, you bet flop, call, turn is a three, check, bet every single time. You're going for 3 streets against worse pairs, and you want to extract from random combo draws like T9. When raised you have a pretty trivial fold unless your opponent is some spazztard. Hell double-barrel pairs which aren't even that relevant to the board. People call you down so lightly that you can play almost perfect poker in position by just betting your modest holdings.


I think this is good advice for the micros. I find myself often giving players way too much credit when they call bets so I'll slow down prematurely. I need to keep reminding myself that most micro players will call down light and will won't make a move until they hit a big hand.
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