Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($41.30)
UTG ($60.95)
MP ($63.20)
CO ($75.70)
Button ($10.20)
Hero (SB) ($50)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J, J
2 folds, CO bets $2, 1 fold, Hero raises to $6.50, 1 fold, CO calls $4.50

Flop: ($13.50) K, 10, 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks

Turn: ($13.50) 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks

River: ($13.50) 9 (2 players)
Hero bets $6, CO raises to $25.50, Hero folds

Total pot: $25.50 | Rake: $1.05


I think I played this bad. In hindsight I probably should have raised a bit more OOP and maybe bet on the flop.

Yeah you should make it like $7-8 I lean towards bigger 3bets because I don't make a lot of them. Why do you think you played it badly post flop? Just curious as to your reasoning, not saying you did or didn't.

well you definitely could have played it a little better... but like you said it's all in hindsight. just stuff to remember for future hands

Like what? Let's be specific, it is a strat forum, these posts are a little vague.

i think 3-bet size is fine but 7-8 would be cool as well

i don't think this hand is played too badly. I would just b/f flop or turn for that matter. this hand really gets tricky if you bet flop and are called though..

I don't think the PF raise is that bad. Could have been more.
CBet is almost required on the flop though.
I don't know what he went ape with on the river, but I think we can fold unless we have notes on him being a complete monkey.

C-bet the flop, if you're called shut it down.

As played, fold river unless you have him pegged as a spaz.

Definitely +1 for b/f flop. And then again as played I b/f turn. You played the river correct based on how you got there. I know it's unwise to put a villain on one specific holding, but this basically screams 99 (or QJ if he calls 3bets loose)

I Actually don't hate just checking it down here. Betting flop or turn puts us in a sticky situation if we are called, and we will likely have to fold on later streets, so we are essentially bluffing if we bet. As played, I think I check the river too, and here's why:

his reasonable range to call a river bet here (that we beat) is: AT, QT, JT, and possibly 44-88. This is pretty narrow, and I'm not even sure we'll get a call from 44-88. If we think he'll hero call with A high, then we should value bet.


As well, even passive opponents will feel inclined to bluff sometimes when checked to on 3 streets, so i think checking and calling a bet is a reasonable line. It is close though, it depends a lot on the opponent

How do people that want to c-bet flop respond to this?



Not quite, our hand does beat most of his calling range, so it's not a bluff, it's a value bet.

in all honesty idk

i can't come up with an optimum line. i feel we have to know our opponent i don't know if there can be a standard line vs an unknown. i mean we did three bet pf and our hand def has value.

the c-bet at least creates some fe in a 3-bet pot. idk i'm stumped on this one. if called at least we can assign ranges which would def include spades, js.

I think Ryan will probably come up with a better line or reasoning than I can, but he's apparently high or passed out or something.

I'm against betting the flop. I'm slightly against betting the turn, but could possibly be swayed, but I think it's prob a little bad w/o knowing villain is a station puss that won't bluff river.

I think betting river is quite a bit better than c/c river because you can prob value bet any pocket pair by that point and definitely hands like 9x and Tx. The river bet should be a little bigger just cuz it's a blocking value bet, and this one is prob a little too small and almost invites some villains to raise. I'd bet river at like $8.

Overall I thought the way he played the hand was correct on every street just that his pf raise sizing and river raise sizing were bad. I think villain also shows up with 99/QJ here a tonnnnnn.

More importantly, this hand illustrates why being OOP sucks balls and why you should make your pf reraises OOP very big to make people pay for playing weaker hands against you, because they are going to be able to put you in bad spots so often and even though villain literally did nothing in this hand the board puts us in a bad position often too.

Edit: Also to OP, I'm wondering why you thought you played it bad? Just because you get a bad result doesn't mean you played it poorly, that's obv results based thinking.

You have to c/b flop, along the lines of 8.00, to have any clue where we are in this hand. We are looking for fold equity with that bet, if we are called, I just give up and hope for a cheap showdown, and if we are raised, I fold. I play this hand pretty black and white myself. The way you played the hand, and the small bet size on the river, I am re-raising you with missed AQ's and the like all day long. You must have bet the river as a blocking bet, so you wouldn't have to call more if he bet, to see if you are good.. but in honesty, the bet is so small that it asks for you to get played back at more then if you checked.

you three-bet, he calls, a King and Ten flop, you bet... he calls/raises...his range crushes us (we're really only ahead of AQs, and smaller pocket pairs, that are never gonna bet again anyways). If we don't bet there, we never know what his range is, I almost wanna call river as played.

Oh and someone said JQ is in his range, well first, that is a really loose player to call the three-bet and secondly, we got two of his jacks.. nope..

I'm going to check-fold turn, as gross as that may sound. But the reason is, I'm check-shoving AK, AA, sets and check calling when I've spazzed and "accidentally" 3bet KQ oop.

If it checks through to the river I'll look up a smaller sized bet depending on opponent.

The other thing is, I don't see people making too many heroic bluffs in 3bet pots at micros, and FDs like to take free cards when so much money is in the pot quite often.

Personally I like the 3-bet size he makes here.

I think this post is a good reason why cbetting here is pretty bad. We can only win the hand if he doesn't bet again and called us with a worse hand. If we are calling some river bets that makes it even tougher, cuz we're just in a complete guessing game on his bluffing frequency.

Also, why would you ever check with AA, AK, sets and stuff when you're next point is that people won't bluff in 3bet pots and will take free cards with a flush draw?

That makes checking the turn reallllllllllllly bad.

Also Vinny, what do you mean we're looking for fold equity with that bet? We aren't bluffing, we aren't semi-bluffing, we aren't betting for protection (because he never folds over cards with his overcard + gutshot draw.

The cbet is folding only hands that we crush and getting calls from hands that either beat us or have good equity against us and also Tx hands. We can get a street of value from Tx hands on any street of our choosing, the flop seems like the worst one to try because he may bet later.

So your argument is that we don't c/b because it puts us in a complete guessing game against bluffs? Excuse me? If anything it gives us waaay more information. I have to put in that 8 dollars on the flop, to know what to do the rest of the hand. If you don't bet the 8 on the flop, you are going to be putting in a whole lot more guessing the rest of the way possibly calling his bets.

Checking the turn is bad when? Are you saying its bad to check after a c/b is called? I don't think it is at all, I am not putting in anymore money with JJ there if I am called on the flop, maybe I am a nit.

Didn't see the second post. Okay, well is fold equity the wrong word? Let's just say, we don't mind ending the hand here, and he folds here a decent amount of time here. I think the value in this hand is the current pot, not future streets, and that could really be bad poker thinking I have. It's more of an information bet that I have to make, because if we don't bet, he bets like ten, and we have no clue what we are calling with for more money. I really am prepared to win this hand two ways at this point...a) take it down with the flop bet, a cheap showdown after the flop bet, I just personally think this is the right way to play against a no-reads player's three-bet call range, with Jacks and a K on board..

I agree w/Vinny. We like a bet/takeitdown result because, OOP, it's going to be almost impossible, readless, to extract value from villain's range on this board. When we check otf, he can value bet us w/better; he can double or even triple barrel us w/worse - if we bet and he raises, we obv have to fold, and if we bet and he calls then we're unable to get more value from worse pairs, but we're always put in tough spots when facing pressure, from better hands or hands like AQ...

Bottom line is that, unless we can godmode it and turn a jack, EVERY line is going to suck in some way. Bet/fold and c/c are both fine IMO so long as you don't get too invested in the hand (again, assuming you don't go IDQQD on this bitch)

Open folding looks attractive, metagame

haha even a Jack could suck......

but yes, I think this is just the most comfortable way to play the hand... I just don't see value anywhere else without some hero call you shouldn't really have the reads to make

This, imo

Ima let whatgreatis post his thoughts after he finishes his sesh up, I'm not sure what he thinks is optimal, but the way I'm explaining what I believe is the correct play might not be coming off as eloquently as it should. All I do know is when I showed him the HH is he wrote "cbetting is horrible" as soon as he read it.

But a few more things, by checking instead of cbetting villain can bet anything in his range, this is good because we can beat his bluffs and his weaker value bets. By betting he is folding his complete air, so we lose the biggest part of his range that we are ahead of.

Betting to take it down now is not a winning strategy. It's betting for information. Don't bet for information. The only times we really "bet for protection" are when we have a weak pocket pair that wants overcards to fold or call with the wrong price, so we bet because we don't want them to check behind and get there for free. In this case, villain is never folding over cards because of the board, not only is he not folding over cards on the flop he is likely to turn those into bluffs if the pot gets bigger.

I think it is partially because I lost (I hate losing). Honestly, I usually do bet this flop and shut down if he calls, but I thought about it after the flop came out and figured that he could easily call me with a 10 or QJ or AQ or a K or a FD and I would have to check the turn and fold or make a call on the river to win.

When he raised me on the river I asked, "Why would you do that when it's obvious I have KK?" Unfortunately, he didn't respond. That raise on the river, at these limits, is almost never bluff. I do agree, I should have bet more on the river. After I bet I thought it was really obvious that it was a blocker bet - but maybe it was just obvious because I made it.

So, to answer your question: I really hated playing this hand because I had no idea what he had, and I just didn't know what to do. So, maybe I didn't play it bad, but I'm definitely flaky in these spots. I should have made it like $7.50 preflop.

Do you think it's every ok to flat call in the blinds and then lead the flop? I feel like it would be the same scenario, but it would keep the pot smaller at least.

Edit: I agree, I didn't want to just bet for information on the flop only to get called and still be lost in the hand.

I like this, and I definitely see the value in it

I know I get a little terrified in gray areas oop, but this is good stuff, so thanks

OP played his hand very well. He made two minor mistakes in bet sizing. His preflop 3bet should be 1-2bb over pot as standard. I would lean towards making it 2bb+pot. His other mistake was in river sizing where he can probably extract more value if he bets 10 because the difference in villains calling range between 6-10 is relatively small given the action on the earlier streets. Bet/folding the river is the best action.


Cbetting the flop is bad for a couple reasons:
It's hard to get value from worse. When he cbets he's getting value from a smaller range than when he checks. When he bets he's only getting value from 10x hands and his hand can't stand a raise. There's enough draws on the board where villains will be raising this cbet a decent percentage of the time.

By checking, you get more value than betting. A lot of villains will autobet a hand like 88 after you check this flop. It's also very common for a villain to bet AQ. By checking it also prevents us from getting raised off our hand by a draw or a bluff.

By checking the flop we can play the turn and river easier. When you bet this flop and your called, it puts you in a very bad spot for the turn/river where you will frequently be guessing. When you check flop and he checks back, you can ussually get two streets of value from worse on non-over turns/rivers. This will depend highly on villains calling tendencies. Going for one street of value here, like the OP did, is also fine. But when he only goes for one street he should make his valuebet a little closer to pot.

To have that result, we have to be way ahead. We want to be way ahead, but betting doesn't cause us to be way ahead.

So, I agree with WhatGreatIs.

so if i'm reading this correctly your saying check flop and if villian bets call all 3 streets if they are bet? cause that sounds ludacris. villian can easily double barrel a wide variety with a b/f mentality. we'll be playing for stacks by the river.

totally on board with this being an mucccccccccccccccch easier hand if it goes check/check on the flop.

i don't think there's a right answer to this hand

I don't think what is saying that. Since you're checking your entire range on this flop, sometimes you'll have a very strong made hand (e.g. KK,AK) so you could check/call all three streets if villain barreled you. With JJ, it'd be villain dependent on how many streets you would c/c.

+1

If they bet you typically call two streets and then play poker and make a read on what to do on the river. And yeah, you typically play for stacks in 3bet pots. You need to get comfortable with stacking off light sometimes.

Yes, there is a right answer to this hand and I just gave it to you.

I'm pretty sure he isn't checking his entire range on this board. This is a pretty bad board to be checking to trap imo. If we could value bet against a K, then betting would be better than checking, but since JJ obv can't do that checking is better. If we had AK we'd bet because overcards would call, we'd have tptk and be willing to stack and we'd be giving flush draws a bad price.

Edit: to balance our checking range of like pocket pairs with showdown value, I'd c/r gutshots with over cards and flush draws. We'd cbet with complete air, or really small pps that we are going to go 3 streets with and turn into bluffs to balance with our sets, AK, KK, AA

I don't hate the 3-bet size because it probably accomplishes the goal of weeding out the stone could first in bluffs but because 3 peels the turn, a none scary card because I don't put him on A3 suited or 33 I think a probe bet looks like some sort of K and probably wins the pot if he was drawing to a flush and could insure a check behind if the flush misses. Also, the river bet was kind of small because it just looks like a weak play so that leads me to think villian was just punishing what he saw a weak attempt at winning the hand. IDK weird hand would love to know what villian truly had.

oh and c-bet would have been ok too but i see why you checked.

Idk about you c-bet theory because we have a bit of folding equity with 10's, Q's will probably fold. Yes it ios hard to get a ton of value from this hand but if we c-bet flop, check turn, bet river we probably take it down because of all the draws folding. If he spiked a set or a boat we are screwed but we let free cards come off on a draw heavy flop I just don't like that.

i don't stack off light

Oh snap.

Agreed. I seriously think that was a dumb concept, get used to stacking off light?

I am coming to grips with the fact, that there may be no "right" way to play this hand, and a lot of that had to do with whatgreatis's thoughts about getting extra value from the hand. I still think c/b is my way of playing it, because I feel more comfortable not guessing and get the easiest value... But... I did not take JJ into a pot three-bet preflop, OOP, and say "boy, theres a king, I better get in 'stack off light' mode"

LOLthisshitisgonnablow

I understand that people want to be cautious but I haven't heard anyone talk about protecting our hand yet, what gives? I know there are better NL cash players than me here so maybe someone can explain it to me. The logic isn't quite registering in my thick head yet.

IMO You are ahead of a lot of the caller's range (AQ-A10, QJ, 99 + other random pockets etc) and checking down gives the villain a chance to catch up for free. AK is really the only hand I'm afraid of. My instinct wants me to protect my hand and bet.

I dunno, I'm probably way off here and not thinking this thru enough but regardless great thread. Are you checking the flop because you are scared of being check raised with hands in his range you're ahead of? I don't like playing scared, i like to take initiative and bet. Can someone explain why betting is -EV?

Seriously everyone,

Whatgreatis > Everyone else in this thread who doesn't agree with him.

There's a right way to play this hand. It is checking the flop and calling. Ryan wasn't saying you hafta stack off light and trap with JJ, the point was, what is villain's range to bet flop, bet turn, bet river. He's repping some really narrow shit with that line. When people rep very narrow ranges on drawy boards, well it's usually a call but it's villain dependent. You're not always calling off here, you aren't usually calling off here, but it has to be a possibility.

The only think betting JJ here does is make the hand easier to play, but it makes it less +EV to play. Until you start putting yourself in uncomfortable situations where you have to think about what villain is repping and how his bet sizing correlates with it, you won't improve by just waiting for big mistakes. These are little spots that make a dramatic difference in your development as a player.

The EV between betting here and c/c a few streets is probably small. It's the concept behind it that makes it really big.



I tried to cover this earlier, but maybe I didn't write it well or you disagree. Betting for protection is kind of whack in the first place, but we have to do it sometimes. We have 55 on a K826 board, sometimes we're betting the turn here (if we checked flop) for protection against any over card to a 5 that wouldn't call a bet or bluff, so no reason to let him draw for free.

In this hand we have JJ on a KTx two spade board and we're OOP in a 3bet pot. What kinds of hands do we bet for protection against? Over cards that won't bluff and won't call with worse. Every overcard combo in villains 3bet calling range has either top pair, middle pair, straight draw, or gutshot + over cards. We aren't folding anything by betting. He's literally calling with all of those hands, so we didn't protect against anything. All we did was fold the very bottom of his range which was air. That's never a good result, we want his range to be as weak as possible in this situation.

Agree with everything tskillz and whatgreatis wrote in this thread.


Vinny, and other supporters of the c-bet, can we agree that we are ahead a lot of the time on the flop here? Ok, now, given the times that we are ahead, think of all the scenarios that can occur if we bet the flop. Compare that with the scenarios that can happen if we check the flop.

i think you will find that checking puts us in a lot more 'favourable' situations than betting does.

also, since this is a big pot, any mistake we make is amplified. Betting makes it a lot more likely that we will make a huge mistake in this hand (folding the winning hand)

Okay I see your point a little better, thank you for reitterating it for me. If you think all of those hands are coming along then I can see why you wouldn't want to put more money in the pot.

Personally, I still think that with a healthy bet I can get most of that range to fold that I don't want catching up. I want to grab this nice pot right now. I am sticking to my guns, wrong as I may be lol.

lol flawed thinking.

Honestly?? Maybe the players who are checking, and getting all this thin value by the river from the villian's range, are just better at poker then me. Maybe its less +EV for you, but for me if I don't bet the flop I don't know what the hell I'm doing so it's the right play with my current poker skill. I just can't believe that you guys really play a hand like this and get several streets of value from all these mid pocket pairs, and AT which just keep betting at you (and bets we keep calling) more often then you just lose a big pot to a bigger pair or AK or something playing that way, a hand that would actually call a three-bet and keep firing.

That's why I'm here.

I like your guy's line I just don't think I ever play it like that. It's def making me question my thinking.

Good. Thinking about the game all the time, and ways to improve is good. I question my thinking all the time. I'm going to point out what/why was flawed with your statement. Please think about what I am writing a lot because its a big deal.






The bolded is very flawed. When you say "I want to grab this nice pot right now" you're implying that your playing the hand as a bluff off the flop, which you def should not be. It implys that you think about taking the pot right away before you can get sucked out on, or whatever and not how to play each hand to show the highest expectation. You should start trying to break down villains ranges and how each part of his range will react to different bets. When you can do that effectively, poker is a ez game.

Good stuff, thanks man!

The bolded is great advice but def easier said than done. I always break down ranges in tourney poker well but I don't think I know how to as well in cash yet. I def got your point tho, i def wasn't thinking in terms of highest expectation but simply how not to get sucked out on, lol. It makes more sense now, thanks again!

When you stop doing this, the whole game opens up to you.