How do you interpret the fact that the oldest version of the bible fails to mention the resurrection of your savior in its entirety? Seems like a fairly large omission. Obviously the church hadn't been trying to sell the whole resurrection thing until later in its life, at which point it was added.

For those of you who choose to believe, how do you interpret this information? Do you suddenly stop believing in the resurrection? Or maybe you start to believe god is fallible and simply made a mistake on this early copy, correcting it later?

I have to understand how so many can believe, when things like this make it seem like believers are completely nanners.


News Story on 1600 year old bible

if christians were somehow able to get past the brainwashing lies and apologist propaganda and learn what objective scholars really know about the origin of the bible their heads would explode.

How do you interpret the fact that the oldest version of the bible fails to mention the resurrection of your savior in its entirety? Seems like a fairly large omission. Obviously the church hadn't been trying to sell the whole resurrection thing until later in its life, at which point it was added.

For those of you who choose to believe, how do you interpret this information? Do you suddenly stop believing in the resurrection? Or maybe you start to believe god is fallible and simply made a mistake on this early copy, correcting it later?

I have to understand how so many can believe, when things like this make it seem like believers are completely nanners.


News Story on 1600 year old bible

20:1 But on the first of the week, Mary Magdalene comes to the sepulcher early, it being yet dark, and sees the stone taken away from the sepulcher.

2 She therefore runs and comes to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved, and says to them: They have taken away the Lord out of the sepulcher, and we know not where they have laid him.

3 Thereupon Peter went forth and the other disciple, and came to the sepulcher.

4 But the two ran together; and the other disciple outran Peter, and came first to the sepulcher;

5 and having stooped down, he saw the linen cloths lying: however he went not in.

6 Then comes Simon Peter following him; and he went into the sepulcher, and saw the linen cloths lying,

7 and the handkerchief, which was on his head, not lying with the linen cloths, but folded up in a place by itself.

8 Therefore, the other disciple also that came first to the sepulcher then went in, and saw and believed;

9 for they not yet knew the scripture, that he must rise from the dead.

10 The disciples then went away again to their homes.

11 But Mary stood without at the sepulcher weeping. Then as she wept, she stooped down and looked into the sepulcher,

12 and saw two angels in white, sitting, one at the head and one at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain.

13 They say to her: Woman, why weepest thou? She says to them: They have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him. Having said these things, she turned back, and saw Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus.

15 Jesus says to her: Woman, why weepest thou? Whom seekest thou? She, supposing that he was the gardener, says to him: Sir, if thou hast borne him away, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.

16 Jesus said to her: Mary. She turned and said to him in Hebrew: Rabboni, which is called, Teacher.

17 Jesus says to her: Touch me not; for I have not yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brethren and say to them: I ascend to my Father and your Father, and to my God and your God.

18 Mary Magdalene comes and tells the disciples: I have seen the Lord; and that he had said these things to her.

19 When therefore evening had come on that day, the first of the week, and the doors had been closed where the disciples were for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and said to them: Peace to you.

20 And having said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Thereupon the disciples rejoiced when they saw the Lord.

21 He then said to them again: Peace to you; as the Father has sent me, I also send you.

22 And having said this, he breathed on them and said to them: Receive the Holy Spirit.

23 Whosesoever sins you forgive, they are forgiven them; whosesoever sins you retain, they are retained.

24 But Thomas, who is called Didymus, one of the twelve, was not with them when Jesus came.

25 The other disciples therefore said to him: We have seen the Lord. But he said to them: Unless I see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the place of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe.

26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them. Jesus came, the doors having been shut, and stood in the midst, and said: Peace to you.

27 Then he says to Thomas: Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands, and reach thy hand, and put it into my side, and be not faithless, but believing.

28 Thomas answered and said to him: My Lord and my God.

29 Jesus says to him: Because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that, though not seeing, have yet believed.

30 Many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book;

31 but these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that, believing, you may have life in his name.

21:1 After these things Jesus manifested himself to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias: and he manifested himself thus.

24:1 But on the first of the week, very early in the morning, they came to the sepulcher, bringing the spices that they had prepared.

2 And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulcher;

3 but entering, they found not the body of the Lord Jesus.

4 And it came to pass as they were perplexed about this, behold, two men stood by them in bright clothing

5 and the women being afraid and bowing their faces to the earth the angels said to them: Why see among the dead for him that lives?

6 He is not here, but has risen. Remember how he spoke to you while he was yet in Galilee,

7 saying of the Son of man that he must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and rise on the third day.

8 And they remembered his words,

9 and returned from the sepulcher and told all these things to the eleven and to all the rest.

10 And they were Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James; and the rest with them told these things to the apostles.

11 And these words appeared in their sight as idle tales, and they believed them not.

12 But Peter arose and ran to the sepulcher, and stooping down, he saw the linen clothes lying by themselves; and he departed, wondering in himself at that which had come to pass.

13 And behold, two of them were going on the same day to a village named Emmaus, distant from Jerusalem sixty furlongs;

14 and they were conversing one with another about all these things that had happened.

15 And it came to pass while they were conversing and discussing, Jesus himself came near and went with them;

16 but their eyes were held so that they did not know him.

17 And he said to them: What matters are these that you interchange one with another as you walk? And they stood still with countenances sad.

18 But one, whose name was Cleopas, answering, said to him: Dost thou only dwell as a stranger in Jerusalem and hast not known the things that have come to pass in it in these days?

19 And he said to them: What things? And they said to him: The things concerning Jesus the Nazarene, who became a man, a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people,

20 and how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him up to the condemnation of death and crucified him.

21 But we were hoping that it had been he that was about to redeem Israel. Yet even with all this, this is the third day since these things were done.

22 But also some women of our company astonished us; having been early at the sepulcher,

23 and not finding his body, they came, saying that they had also seen a vision of angels, who said that he was alive.

24:23 and not finding his body, they came, saying that they had also seen a vision of angels, who said that he was alive.

24 And some of those with us went to the sepulcher, and found it so even as the women had said, but him they saw not.

25 And he said to them: O without understanding, and slow of heart to believe in all things that the prophets have spoken.

26 Was it not needful that the Christ should suffer these things and enter into his glory?

27 And beginning from Moses and from all the prophets, he explained to them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.

28 And they drew near to the village whither they were going, and he made a show of going further;

29 and they constrained him, saying: Abide with us; for it is toward evening, and the day has now declined. And he went in to abide with them.

30 And it came to pass as he reclined at table with them, he took bread, blessed and broke and gave to them;

31 but their eyes were opened, and they recognized him; and he vanished out of their sight.

32 And they said one to another: Was not our heart burning within us, as he spoke to us on the way, as he opened to us the scriptures?

33 And they rose up the same hour and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven and those with them collected together,

34 saying that the Lord has certainly risen and has appeared to Simon.

35 And they told what had taken place on the way, and how he was made known to them in the breaking of bread.

36 But while they were talking of these things, he himself stood in the midst of them.

37 And being terrified and becoming fearful, they thought that they saw a spirit.

38 And he said to them: Why are you troubled, and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39 See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me and see; for a spirit has not flesh and bones as you see me have.

40 And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.

41 But while they believed not for joy, and wondered, he said to them: Have you anything here to eat?

42 And they gave him a piece of broiled fish;

43 and he took it and ate in their presence.

44 And he said to them: These are my words, which I spoke to you while I was yet with you, that all things that are written in the law of Moses and the prophets and the psalms concerning me must be fulfilled.

45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures;

46 and he said to them: Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and rise from the dead on the third day,

47 and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

48 You are witnesses of these things.

49 And I send the promise of my Father upon you; but do you continue in the city, till you be clothed with power from on high.

50 And he led them out as far as Bethany, and having lifted up his hands, he blessed them.

51 And it came to pass, as he blessed them, he was separated from them.

52 And they returned to Jerusalem with great joy,

53 and were continually in the temple praising God.

1: Now upon the first day of the week, very early in the morning, they came unto the sepulchre, bringing the spices which they had prepared, and certain others with them.
2: And they found the stone rolled away from the sepulchre.
3: And they entered in, and found not the body of the Lord Jesus.
4: And it came to pass, as they were much perplexed thereabout, behold, two men stood by them in shining garments:
5: And as they were afraid, and bowed down their faces to the earth, they said unto them, Why seek ye the living among the dead?
6: He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,
7: Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.
8: And they remembered his words,
9: And returned from the sepulchre, and told all these things unto the eleven, and to all the rest.
10: It was Mary Magdalene, and Joanna, and Mary the mother of James, and other women that were with them, which told these things unto the apostles.
11: And their words seemed to them as idle tales, and they believed them not.
12: Then arose Peter, and ran unto the sepulchre; and stooping down, he beheld the linen clothes laid by themselves, and departed, wondering in himself at that which was come to pass.
13: And, behold, two of them went that same day to a village called Emmaus, which was from Jerusalem about threescore furlongs.
14: And they talked together of all these things which had happened.
15: And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them.
16: But their eyes were holden that they should not know him.
17: And he said unto them, What manner of communications are these that ye have one to another, as ye walk, and are sad?
18: And the one of them, whose name was Cleopas, answering said unto him, Art thou only a stranger in Jerusalem, and hast not known the things which are come to pass therein these days?
19: And he said unto them, What things? And they said unto him, Concerning Jesus of Nazareth, which was a prophet mighty in deed and word before God and all the people:
20: And how the chief priests and our rulers delivered him to be condemned to death, and have crucified him.
21: But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
22: Yea, and certain women also of our company made us astonished, which were early at the sepulchre;
23: And when they found not his body, they came, saying, that they had also seen a vision of angels, which said that he was alive.
24: And certain of them which were with us went to the sepulchre, and found it even so as the women had said: but him they saw not.
25: Then he said unto them, O fools, and slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken:
26: Ought not Christ to have suffered these things, and to enter into his glory?
27: And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself.
28: And they drew nigh unto the village, whither they went: and he made as though he would have gone further.
29: But they constrained him, saying, Abide with us: for it is toward evening, and the day is far spent. And he went in to tarry with them.
30: And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them.
31: And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight.
32: And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?
33: And they rose up the same hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
34: Saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
35: And they told what things were done in the way, and how he was known of them in breaking of bread.
36: And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
37: But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.
38: And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
39: Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
40: And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.
41: And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
42: And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
43: And he took it, and did eat before them.
44: And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.
45: Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,
46: And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:
47: And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.
48: And ye are witnesses of these things.
49: And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.
50: And he led them out as far as to Bethany, and he lifted up his hands, and blessed them.
51: And it came to pass, while he blessed them, he was parted from them, and carried up into heaven.
52: And they worshipped him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy:
53: And were continually in the temple, praising and blessing God. Amen.

Luke 24 looks the same.

This is laughable.

Textual critism is probably the single greatest scientific strength in Christian appologetics today.

We can reconstruct 95% of the New Testament just from letters of church leaders where they quote the NT. We have over 10,000 ancient copies.

Or at least stop trying to infer that you have special knowledge about a subject that you are completely ignorant of.

it's shouldn't be laughable to you that you won't find a single secular scholar who would agree with you on that. if it were really a "scientific" strength you would.





you can reconstruct 95% of the original mishmash of obvious plagiarism and dubious authorship with no objective evidence that any of what you call "original" wasn't written decades after the fact. that proves jesus was god i guess.



my previous statement is accepted as common knowledge among secular scholars, as well as a lot of the more objective religious ones. nothing special about it.

Wait, does it take back that I can't hurt my slaves teeth when I beat them?

I like that God allows me to keep slaves and beat them, but I don't like shying away from the mouth.

16:1 And when the sabbath had passed, Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of James, and Salome bought spices, that they might come and anoint him.

2 And very early on the first of the week they came to the sepulcher, the sun having risen.

3 And they said among themselves: Who shall roll away for us the stone from the door of the sepulcher?

4 And looking up they see that the stone had been rolled away; for it was very great.

5 And they entered the sepulcher and saw a young man, sitting at the right side, clothed in a white robe; and they were amazed.

6 But he says to them: Be not amazed. You seek Jesus the Nazarene who was crucified; he has risen, he is not here: see the place where they laid him.

7 But go, tell his disciples, especially Peter, that he goes before you into Galilee: there you shall see him, as he said to you.

8 And going out they fled from the sepulcher; for trembling and astonishment had seized them; and they said nothing to any one, for they were afraid.

1: And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
2: And very early in the morning the first day of the week, they came unto the sepulchre at the rising of the sun.
3: And they said among themselves, Who shall roll us away the stone from the door of the sepulchre?
4: And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away: for it was very great.
5: And entering into the sepulchre, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, clothed in a long white garment; and they were affrighted.
6: And he saith unto them, Be not affrighted: Ye seek Jesus of Nazareth, which was crucified: he is risen; he is not here: behold the place where they laid him.
7: But go your way, tell his disciples and Peter that he goeth before you into Galilee: there shall ye see him, as he said unto you.
8: And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre; for they trembled and were amazed: neither said they any thing to any man; for they were afraid.
9: Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.
10: And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.
11: And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.
12: After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.
13: And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.
14: Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.
15: And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16: He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
17: And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
18: They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
19: So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.
20: And they went forth, and preached everywhere, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.

Mark is shorter. Luke starts up on the same page, so there aren't missing pages at the end.

Guys, I share your frustrations with this argument, but we're not exactly proving BG wrong about the whole morals thing if we are just rude all the time. I love the sarcastic humor, but let's try to be civil.

I know it feels like there's no getting through and we go in circles, but I'm not entirely cynical about the prospect of affecting each other in some positive way through this kind of argument.

Besides, without his totally wrong position what would we do in here?

1. Who is being rude? If one searches the old and new testaments for Gods view on slavery, everything I've said is absolutely true for a Christians. Their God figure allows some of his followers to keep, beat and have sex with slaves, as long as they don't kill them, or bust their eye-socket or break a tooth. If they hurt their eye or tooth, they have to set them free. I don't see a problem with pointing out something they already believe 100% if they are not hypocrites, and adding that it is too bad they can't sever their slaves retina or take out their teeth one by one.

2. Most religions are based on texts that are about the most rude, abrasive, vulgar, disgusting, eternal punishment to non-believer threatening, research stifling, misogynistic, pieces of trash humanity has ever concocted. If they believe their particular superstitious, brain-numbing, absurdity spouting tomes... fuck civility.

3. I am not party to this concern we give to people who believe that slaves are ok and babies are born sinners. If someone spouts some nonsense bullshit I'm going to call it nonsense bullshit.

4. Seriously though, I want to beat my slaves teeth out and then gouge their eyes with the shards. God needs to take his slave beating rules a step further.

5. There is no 5. Just like there is no spoon. Just like text isn't moving, mind is moving.

it's shouldn't be laughable to you that you won't find a single secular scholar who would agree with you on that. if it were really a "scientific" strength you would.





you can reconstruct 95% of the original mishmash of obvious plagiarism and dubious authorship with no objective evidence that any of what you call "original" wasn't written decades after the fact. that proves jesus was god i guess.



my previous statement is accepted as common knowledge among secular scholars, as well as a lot of the more objective religious ones. nothing special about it.

I wasn't talking about the slave thing, and I agree you have the right to call bullshit when you see it.

I dunno, I just felt like the tone in here was ratcheting up, but I could have been imaging it. Carry on.



But regarding #2 - I think when people are irrational, unfair, or whatever, the only solution is to use the carrot and show what the opposite is. Humans cannot help but to imitate.

Really, you want to make a stand here crow?

Cause I would love you too.

While you round up all the secular scholars in the world who you speak for, I will wait and collect some data for you.

Feel free to produce these learned men and their work,who have peeled back the truths that the Christians have been hiding.

Should we focus on the higher or lower forms of textual crticism?

Btw, the most important point in my post was number 5, you UNENLIGHTENED JACKASS.

Here's a quick little site that has a good collection of some guys who claim to know what they are talking about.
they use like facts and stuff, and reference their work, but I'm sure ou will be able to clear the muck and show them for the biased charlatans that they are.

Danger Danger..lies and distortions are afoot

ooo scary.

i repeat it's accepted as common knowledge among the vast majority of secular scholars that the evidence indicates the gospels are largely plagiarisms and are of dubious authorship.
i've read enough of them to know that's obviously true. general speaking only christian apologists think they could possibly be first-hand accounts.

ooo scary.

i repeat it's accepted as common knowledge among the vast majority of secular scholars that the evidence indicates the gospels are largely plagiarisms and are of dubious authorship.
i've read enough of them to know that's obviously true. general speaking only christian apologists think they could possibly be first-hand accounts.

No, I'm just a level beyond you, sensei. You know how first mountains are mountains, then mountains are no longer mountains, but later mountains are just mountains again?

scanned that and don't see anything that I can pretend is false.

By plagiarisms do you mean stories and parables stolen from other myths? (Rising of the savior, three wise men, ect. ect)

Well this does seem to be true. The death/resurrection story far predates Jesus and was previously told as Osiris, Dionysis/Orpheus, Attis, Mithras, and others.

Below is a picture of Orpheus/Dionysus carved in stone from the ancient Greek Dionysus cult... look familiar?



Dionysus's/Bacchus's mother was a mortal woman who was impregnated by Zeus....

Mithras Scholars of Mithras purport that he lived as long ago as 1400 BC, and that his height of influence in the Roman Empire was at precisely the same time that Christianity was founded.2 He is purported to have been born of a virgin on December 25 in a cave and attended by shepherds, was a great traveling preacher, had 12 followers, promised his followers immortality, sacrificed himself as the ‘great bull of the sun’ for world peace, had been buried in a tomb and rose again in 3 days. He was called the ‘Good Shepherd’, the ‘word’, the ‘redeemer’, and identified himself with both the lamb and the lion.3 Clearly, there appear to be parallels between Jesus and Mithras.

Osiris Perhaps one of the most well known ‘resurrection’ stories comes from actions from the ancient Egyptian god Isis. Osiris, Isis’ brother/husband, was killed by his evil brother Set and eventually cut into 14 pieces and scattered throughout Egypt. The distraught god Isis searched and found the body pieces, brought them together and brought him back to life. At issue is the accusation that this allegedly occurred many years before Christianity, potentially influencing the Christian story.

Apollonius of Tyana In a city south of modern day Turkey, Apollonius is purported to have lived, had followers (disciples), performed miracles, died, and then was seen after his death. He supposedly lived in the first century AD, at the same time as Jesus of Nazareth. This is clearly another competing account, sometimes given as example of potentially influencing the Christian story.

Mithraism It turns out that the cult died out during the fifth century BC, leaving us with absolutely no documentary evidence. 2 In addition, the cult was so secretive its orthodoxy’s were only delivered to those initiated into the cult. The only means by which scholars extrapolate information about the cult today is via the remaining temples and artifacts, which consist of elaborate statues, relief’s and paintings. The most famous of these statues is the ‘taroctony’, which is the ‘bull-slaying scene’ in which Mithras is seen killing a bull with a sword, in the company of a dog, a snake, a raven, and a scorpion.

Franz Cumont, one of the first serious scholars of Mitraism, had presented the claim that Mithraism was founded in Iran in 1400 BC. There was indeed a being worshipped at that time named Mithra, however his influence was compromised over the years as syncretism did its work and relegated his legend into one of the lesser gods. There is absolutely no evidence of the Iranian Mithra slaying a bull, so Cumont proceeded to project the belief that someone somewhere must have, allowing the mere possibility of it to have happened to become the driving force behind the legend. There is also no evidence of the Iranian Mithra worshipers meeting in caves, having levels of secrecy, or even pursuing secrecy at all. All of these items were added to the cult in the early first century by the Romans.3 All of these logically lead to the conclusion that the cult of Roman Mithraism was “a new creation using old Iranian names and details for an exotic coloring to give a suitably esoteric appearance to a mystery cult.”9 Recent scholarship has proposed a new meaning to the bull-slaying scene. We know that first century Romans had a geocentric view of the cosmos and participated in intense study and belief of the zodiac. We also know that the earth at that time was leaving the ‘Age of Taurus’ and entering the ‘Age of Aries’. It is therefore likely that the cult was derived to display the death of the bull (which was thought to be in charge of the cosmos) by someone who stands apart from the cosmos (some sort of deity.)2

Regarding the death and resurrection of Mithra, there is absolutely no record in the Mithraic scholarly literature that Mithra died, or was buried, or (of course) rose again. Ironically the ONLY evidence for this is a quote by the early Christian Church Father Tertullian, which was written significantly after the New Testament was written, and it is likely that he was simply repeating the claims of the Mithraic followers. As for some of the other Christ-like claims, a detailed analysis of the reality behind the legend shows that Mithra was not born in a cave, but out of a rock. He was not born or a virgin woman, but of the virgin ‘dawn’. And one might wonder how shepherds could have attended his birth if mankind was yet to be created? These are excellent examples of alleged similarities utilizing Biblical words with different meaning in order to cause confusion. Clearly, there is no need to continue with an investigation of this alleged example of Christian ‘borrowing’.2

Osiris Also rampant within reference to the ‘resurrection’ of Osiris is semantics and alleged similarities. In a famous debate with Dr. Norman Geisler, the former minister turned skeptic Farrell Till uses language such as “[Isis] hovered over Osiris and fanned the breath of life back into his body.”10 However, Mark McFall accurately points out that just a cursory examination of the documentation available shows that this is quite a stretch, and that most scholars are ‘not so quick’ to resort to such elaboration.11 McFall shows us evidence of this in the response of Bruce Metzger (Professor of New Testament Language and Literature, Emeritus, at Princeton Theological Seminary): “whether his can rightly be called a resurrection is questionable”. In fact, in some versions of the myth Osiris is not ‘resurrected’ or even resuscitated, instead he simply stays dead and becomes King of the Underworld! McFall goes on to summarize many other ‘stretches’ of the skeptics and the purveyors of the myth of Isis/Osiris, concluding that “If Osiris was bodily resurrected back to earth as we know earth to be, it would only seem likely that he was resurrected in this way according to much later imaginations of writers…”

Apollonius of Tyana Most interesting about the accounts of Apollonius is that there is only one major historical reference to him, and that is dated well after he is purported to have lived by a man named Pilostratus (170-245 AD). This biography was commissioned by an empress to be used in the dedication of a temple for Apollonius; not exactly independent eyewitness testimony to be used for historical purposes. Norman Geisler describes this type of embellishment as an ‘apotheosis’, which in this type of case is a legend in which a person becomes deified (or the ‘ultimate human’).12 Most interesting about this case is the fact that this is precisely what many skeptics charge about Christianity; however the purpose, quantity, and quality of the documentation clearly point to the apotheosis of Apollonius, but not to Christ.

Ronald Nash describes six major points for us to consider in his classic article on the subject: “Was the New Testament Influenced by Pagan Religions.”13: These points are summarized by Elliot Miller14:

1) None of the so-called savior gods died for someone else. The notion of the Son of God dying in place of His creatures is unique to Christianity.

2) Only Jesus died for sin. As Gunter Wagner observes, none of the pagan gods ‘has the intention of helping men been attributed. The sort of death that they died is quite different (hunting accident, self-emasculation, etc.)

3) Jesus died once for all (Heb 7:27, 9:25-28; 10:10-14). In contrast, the mystery gods were vegetation deities whose repeated deaths and resuscitations depict the annual cycle of nature.

4) Jesus death was an actual event in history. The death of the mystery god appears in a mythical drama with no historical ties; its continued rehearsal celebrates the recurring death and rebirth of nature. The incontestable fact that the early church believed that its proclamation of Jesus’ death and resurrection was grounded in an actual historical event makes absurd any attempt to derive this belief form the mythical, non historical stories of the pagan cults.

5) Unlike the mystery gods, Jesus died voluntarily. Nothing like this appears even implicitly in the mysteries.

6) And finally, Jesus death was not a defeat but a triumph. Christianity stands entirely apart form the pagan mysteries in that its report of Jesus’ death is a message of triumph. Even as Jesus was experiencing the pain and humiliation of the cross, He was the victor. The New Testament’s mood of exultation contrasts sharply with that of the mystery religions, whose followers wept and mourned for the terrible fate that overtook their gods.

Well this does seem to be true. The death/resurrection story far predates Jesus and was previously told as Osiris, Dionysis/Orpheus, Attis, Mithras, and others.

Below is a picture of Orpheus/Dionysus carved in stone from the ancient Greek Dionysus cult... look familiar?



Dionysus's/Bacchus's mother was a mortal woman who was impregnated by Zeus....

It recurs because it is a symbolic story with worthwhile meaning. Anyone who has not seen Joseph Campbell interviewed by Bill Moyers should immediately stop reading the forum and go rent this DVD.

The birthplace of the famous Thracian is not exactly certain. However, it is certain that he has was born somewhere in the southern parts of Bulgaria, near the border with Greece and Turkey. Orpheus' father was Oeagrus (Οίαγρος) a Thracian king (or, according to another version of the story, the god Apollo); his mother was the muse Calliope. While living with his mother and her eight beautiful sisters, he met Apollo who was courting the laughing muse Thalia. Apollo became fond of Orpheus and gave him a little golden lyre, and taught him to play it. Orpheus's mother taught him to make verses for singing.


Death of Eurydice

Orpheus and Eurydice, by Federigo CervelliThe most famous story in which Orpheus figures is that of his wife Eurydice (also known as Agriope). While fleeing from Aristaeus (son of Apollo), Eurydice ran into a nest of snakes which bit her fatally on her heel. Distraught, Orpheus played such sad songs and sang so mournfully that all the nymphs and gods wept. On their advice, Orpheus traveled to the underworld and by his music softened the hearts of Hades and Persephone (he was the only person ever to do so), who agreed to allow Eurydice to return with him to earth on one condition: he should walk in front of her and not look back until they both had reached the upper world. He set off with Eurydice following and in his anxiety as soon as he reached the upper world he turned to look at her, forgetting that both needed to be in the upper world, and she vanished for the second time, but now forever. The story in this form belongs to the time of Virgil, who first introduces the name of Aristaeus. Other ancient writers, however, speak of Orpheus' visit to the underworld; according to Phaedrus in Plato's Symposium (179d), the infernal gods only "presented an apparition" of Eurydice to him. Ovid says that Eurydice's death was not caused by fleeing from Aristaeus but by dancing with naiads on her wedding day. In fact, Plato's representation of Orpheus is that of a coward, as instead of choosing to die in order to be with the one he loved, he instead mocked the gods by trying to go to Hades and get her back alive. Since his love was not "true" he did not want to die for love- he was actually punished by the gods, first by giving him only the apparition of his former wife in the underworld, and then by being killed by women.

The story of Eurydice may actually be a late addition to the Orpheus myths. In particular, the name Eurudike ("she whose justice extends widely") recalls cult-titles attached to Persephone. The myth may have been mistakenly derived from another Orpheus legend in which he travels to Tartarus and charms the goddess Hecate.

Dionysus had a strange birth that evokes the difficulty in fitting him into the Olympian pantheon. His mother was a mortal woman. Semele, the daughter of king Cadmus of Thebes, and his father Zeus, the king of the gods. Zeus' wife, Hera, a jealous and prudish goddess, discovered the affair while Semele was pregnant. Appearing as an old crone (in other stories a nurse), Hera befriended Semele, who confided in her that Zeus was the actual father of the baby in her womb. Hera pretended not to believe her, and planted seeds of doubt in Semele's mind. Curious, Semele demanded of Zeus that he reveal himself in all his glory as proof of his godhood. Though Zeus begged her not to ask this, she persisted and he agreed. Therefore he came to her wreathed in bolts of lightning; mortals, however, could not look upon an undisguised god without dying, and she perished in the ensuing blaze. Zeus rescued the foetal Dionysus by sewing him into his thigh. A few months later, Dionysus was born on Mount Pramnos in the island of Ikaria, where Zeus went to release the now-fully-grown baby from his thigh. In this version, Dionysus is borne by two "mothers" (Semele and Zeus) before his birth, hence the epithet dimētōr (of two mothers) associated with his being "twice-born".

In the Cretan version of the same story, which Diodorus Siculus follows,[19] Dionysus was the son of Zeus and Persephone, the queen of the Greek underworld. Diodorus' sources equivocally identified the mother as Demeter.[20] A jealous Hera again attempted to kill the child, this time by sending Titans to rip Dionysus to pieces after luring the baby with toys. Zeus drove the Titans away with his thunderbolts, but only after the Titans ate everything but the heart, which was saved, variously, by Athena, Rhea, or Demeter. Zeus used the heart to recreate him in the womb of Semele, hence he was again "the twice-born". Other versions claim that Zeus gave Semele the heart to eat to impregnate her.

The rebirth in both versions of the story is the primary reason why Dionysus was worshipped in mystery religions, as his death and rebirth were events of mystical reverence. This narrative was apparently used in several Greek and Roman cults, and variants of it are found in Callimachus and Nonnus, who refer to this Dionysus with the title Zagreus, and also in several fragmentary poems attributed to Orpheus.[citation needed]


[edit] Early life

Kylix (6th century BC) depicting Dionysus among the sailors transformed to dolphins after attempting to kidnap himThe legend goes that Zeus gave the infant Dionysus into the charge of Hermes. One version of the story is that Hermes took the boy to King Athamas and his wife Ino, Dionysus' aunt. Hermes bade the couple raise the boy as a girl, to hide him from Hera's wrath.[21] Another version is that Dionysus was taken to the rain-nymphs of Nysa, who nourished his infancy and childhood, and for their care Zeus rewarded them by placing them as the Hyades among the stars (see Hyades star cluster). Other versions have Zeus giving him to Rhea, or to Persephone to raise in the Underworld, away from Hera. Alternatively, he was raised by Maro.

When Dionysus grew up he discovered the culture of the vine and the mode of extracting its precious juice; but Hera struck him with madness, and drove him forth a wanderer through various parts of the earth. In Phrygia the goddess Cybele, better known to the Greeks as Rhea, cured him and taught him her religious rites, and he set out on a progress through Asia teaching the people the cultivation of the vine. The most famous part of his wanderings is his expedition to India, which is said to have lasted several years. Returning in triumph he undertook to introduce his worship into Greece, but was opposed by some princes who dreaded its introduction on account of the disorders and madness it brought with it. (See Pentheus or Lycurgus.)

As a young man, Dionysus was exceptionally attractive. Once, while disguised as a mortal sitting beside the seashore, a few sailors spotted him, believing he was a prince. They attempted to kidnap him and sail him far away to sell for ransom or into slavery. They tried to bind him with ropes, but no type of rope could hold him. Dionysus turned into a fierce lion and unleashed a bear onboard, killing those he came into contact with. Those who jumped off the ship were mercifully turned into dolphins. The only survivor was the helmsman, Acoetes, who recognized the god and tried to stop his sailors from the start.[22] In a similar story, Dionysus desired to sail from Icaria to Naxos. He then hired a Tyrrhenian pirate ship. But when the god was on board, they sailed not to Naxos but to Asia, intending to sell him as a slave. So Dionysus turned the mast and oars into snakes, and filled the vessel with ivy and the sound of flutes so that the sailors went mad and, leaping into the sea, were turned into dolphins.

I don't think you got my point though, but also maybe missed my edit about Joseph Campbell who deals with this whole issue with such finesse that I can't come close.

Sure christianity has its unique twists. But the basics of the story are essentially the same in meaning as stories told all over the world -- because they arise out of the commonalities of the human psyche.

Myths are like collective dreams -- they express our subconscious in symbolic form. Since we have the same things going on in us wherever we live, we generate the same stories over and over again.

I actually think these stories are very import for human culture; they contain a special kind of knowledge that can't be expressed in any other way. But treating them as historical fact is a mistake and in my opinion takes away from the power of the metaphors in the story.

Jesus was not some particular guy, he represents me, and you.

but I'm not sure how the story works into this plagerism theory:

I don't think you got my point though, but also maybe missed my edit about Joseph Campbell who deals with this whole issue with such finesse that I can't come close.

Sure christianity has its unique twists. But the basics of the story are essentially the same in meaning as stories told all over the world -- because they arise out of the commonalities of the human psyche.

Myths are like collective dreams -- they express our subconscious in symbolic form. Since we have the same things going on in us wherever we live, we generate the same stories over and over again.

I actually think these stories are very import for human culture; they contain a special kind of knowledge that can't be expressed in any other way. But treating them as historical fact is a mistake and in my opinion takes away from the power of the metaphors in the story.

Jesus was not some particular guy, he represents me, and you.

I heard these things thrown about like they were facts quite a few years ago on the radio, so I went to the mythology section of the library, read the stories, and if that's the best there is..then you guys should really do your best to ignore this argument and focus on some of the better ones that don't make you look like you are willing to believe anything, no matter how ridiculous.

So you hold that there never was a person Jesus who existed when it was reported?

Or just that He was misrepresented?

I guarantee you didn't get a good treatment if that's your reaction. What's ridiculous about it?

Let's take another example, the virgin birth.

Virgin births occur in stories in almost every culture. They are in Hindu mythology, Greek/Roman, Native American, and pretty much anywhere else you look. Even the Buddha was born this way. These myths are not referring to independent historical events -- it is a metaphor.

The virgin birth shows the birth of spirituality -- its not an animal birth. It's being born to your selfless nature.

(also, a character born of a virgin birth usually embarks on some kind of father-quest: who is my dad? Since his dad is god, he is really searching for the source of everything, and this journey represents the spiritual journey. )

Seems like there was probably some historical person (although I don't very much trust history from that long ago), but I don't think that historical person is particularly important. The universal myth was projected onto him, and its the myth that carries importance, not the man.

Doesn't the movie Rocky still make its point even if there were no actual Rocky?

I am not saying that there never were examples of similar story lines...even Solomon said "There is nothing new under the sun" 2,000 years before Christ ( date not remotely close )

The idea that since there were story lines (many of which are fabricated btw) parallel to another story line, this doesn't speak to the validity of any one over another. And even granting that the virgin birth telling is one told by 10 different cultures in 10 different eras, this doesn't negate the Christian story of Christ just by their existing. Especially since it is the fullfillment of a prophecy made in the 8th century BC. You could almost argue that many of these tellings were derived from the pre-written writings of Isaiah. I wouln't, but if it's good for the goose...

I do like the message you pull out of the story of the virgin birth though, a full and rich meaning that I can appreciate seperate from what I believe it to mean.

I don't think this view negates the christian story (except maybe in the historical sense), but rather it gives a certain credence to it. Instead of the story being something christians just pulled out of their asses, its a reflection of a universal human truth that all cultures have expressed.

Not to Daniel Negreanu apparently

lol. I get this joke.

Pretty sure vb teed up a softball for me there.

You are too nice.

It's obvious the Christians stole this hoping nobody would notice that they stole it from a very large religion like Hinduism while they were a small subset of a tiny Jewish religion.

Luckily copyright laws were written on stone tablet that were misplaced during the industrial age because of their reminder of our stone age past.

But even if I was to grant you 100% that this story was borrowed from another, this would have exatly ZERO relevance as to whether the Bible is accurately copied, translated and represented today claiming to be accurate to the first manuscripts. Zero

I originally had it as Rudy and changed it to Rocky for you.