This is early in the session so no solid reads yet, villain and hero have one hand of history. Hero opened UTG with to $15, villain flatted from MP3. Flop was , and hero c/c a bet of $20. The turn checked through, and on a river hero figured villain was more likely to bet a worse ace than to call one because Hero's hand looks so much like KK/QQ. Villain thought a long time and then checked behind and mucked to my Ace.

Hero is SB with , effective stacks $275.

8 handed, folds to villain in MP1 who raises to $15, Hero raises to $50, villain flats.

Flop: ($100)

Hero leads for $75, villain makes a couple facial movements, then shoves for $150 more.

Am I alone in thinking that this is like never AQ so we can't call b/c the best we're looking or is a chop? AJ/JJ got there, QQ/KK shouldn't take this line, and live players typically give a 3bettor credit for AK+.

looks like JJ to me

ermm. 1-3 live, I'm folding this.. never. Unless I was playing against the most passive nitty player of all time.


yes, AQ is very much in his range, as is AT, as is a random heart draw, as is a plethora of combo draws. If he is a smart player, he may know that there aren't too many A's in your 3-bet range, and may try this with air.


Regardless, 3-bet pot, tptk, <150 bbs, we aren't folding. I mean come on, we are talking about a 1-3 player whom we have no reads on. We are pulling from the most donkey-filled player pool in the whole wide world of poker, and we are giving him credit for exactly AJ or JJ here? No, get it in there and be happy about it.

/thread.


The only reason you made this thread is because A) You made a bad fold, and want people to tel you that you read soulls or You called and you're being results oriented because he had AJ....

Please. Let's see, you've never once been in a thread or dialogue with me, and you think you know my intentions for posting a hand? Something I seldom do, so it wouldn't be for such a pedantic reason like the ones you listed? I think this merits valid discussion, so don't come in with your "/thread" crap after 2 responses.

You do not think he could have KhQh here like ever? We lose to JJ, AJ, 77, and aces, but that is unlikely obv.

Hands we beat include a lot of draws, like KhQh, Qh10h, or just random flush or straight draw. Since you do not have history with villain, you cannot say with certainty if he is very tight or very loose player, or somewhere in between. I would say call here, although you will probably have to dodge some outs, but I do believe you are ahead right now a lot.

We're very nearly getting odds to call even if we're never ahead.



The pot is laying us 400:150 or 2.7 : 1. Our break-even equity is 27%. If we're ahead basically ever, which I think is safe assumption given the possible draws, this is a profitable call.

Do any other random straight or flush draws that are not KQhh or QThh

1) call a 3bet and
2) make this play?

I agree that live players do crazy, stupid things, but mostly its from being too passive. Since 3bets PF are so uncommon live (and they were at this table too, perhaps I should have mentioned that) and the only thing a 3bettor ever showed down was KK+, AK, villain SHOULD be giving me credit for a pair of aces at least. Based on our previous hand, I would think that he would expect me to play KK passive if an Ace flopped.

I will agree that the above combo draws are a possibility, but even against those hands we are only flipping. I also think that QThh should be heavily discounted due to PF action. I'm also inclined to believe that villain is not going to spaz out with anything less than KQhh, because he should know how tough it is to make me fold here.

And when we flip given odds of 2.7:1, it's very profitable.

You're right. I forgot about a third reason. You're just retarded.





I don't. See basejester's post and /thread

Good word


seriously

Why are you still posting and in an abrasive manner, if it doesn't warrant discussion?

Not to mention that the argument "oh, but we're beating a bluff, so let's donk off all our money with top pair" is quite poor.

Because I enjoy posting in an abrasive manner while not contributing to a retarded discussion



I refer you back to basejesters post. Really.

You're not deep enough to make this fold imo.

Reraise bigger pf. Live players are either calling the reraise or not. Tehy don't care about the sizing, even if this wasn't live though it's kind of a small reraise.

Check flop imo, you should be checking this flop with a lot of your range. QQ, KK, AA, AK, AQ, JJ, basically there's no reason to bet this flop you're polarizing your range so much. What is the purpose of your flop bet? A high flops in 3bet pots are really good flops to be checking, especially with such shallow stacks. It doesn't take 3 streets worht of betting to get another A all in here, so you should have no worries about checking and it's really helpful so you can check your big pairs here and not have someone just blast away at you.

I like this; +1

Shouldn't you bet on the flop the same percentage of the time as you would continue bet had you missed? Or would you check pretty much 100 percent of the time if an ace hits once your 3 bet preflop, no matter what you hold?

I'm checking pretty much 100% of my range. Hands that miss for me... like the worst hand would be QKss, I'd rather check/fold that than cbet it, against most villains. If villain is going to get aggro when you check A high flops in 3bet pots, he's gonna lose a lot of money.

Say we're holding kings here. Does that line mean you check-fold? Check-call moderate bet?

I've been toying with this idea of checking A high flops OOP in different situations, especially 3-bet pots, so I'm kind of curious as what to do with the rest of the range.

Ninja edit: obviously this is villain dependent, I'm looking for a default here.

Thank you to everyone who is actually posting insight and doing so in a reasonable manner. I may not agree with everyone but at least you're contributing to the forum.

BigDMcGee, you're an ******* and you can STFU and GTFO this thread. Don't post in it if you don't want to talk about it, even IF your stance is correct it's certainly not anywhere near clear enough for you to have the attitude you do.

BaseJester, I certainly agree that flipping getting 2.7:1 is profitable. I just don't think we're flipping like ever here. The only conceivable combo draw is KQhh, sometimes of which villains will fold to a PF reraise, and a lot of times live villains will not play that hand fast on this flop. Based on the previous hand where villain did not try to bet hero off a hand that easily could have been KK/QQ on a coordinated A hi board, the read was that villain would not play KQhh fast here.

So some small percentage of the time villain has KQhh and we are flipping, AQ makes absolutely zero sense but its live so maybe again some small %, I'll allow for the normal 5% chance of a total bluff, and then probably the other 75% of the time we are up against a range of {AK, AJ, JJ}. Strictly from a combos standpoint there are 6 combos of AK and AJ each left, and 3 combos of JJ. So of that range lets say 30% of villains total range is AK, 30% is AJ and 15% is JJ.

That leaves us with 50% equity on 10% of villain's range or so (combo draw), 85% equity on the 10% of villains range that is AQ, call it 95% equity on the 5% of villains range that is total air, and then we chop against 30% of villains range (AK), are drawing near dead to 15% (JJ) and are more than a 4:1 dog to the last 30%. (AJ). And TBH the % of range for the AJ and JJ might even be higher, because those are auto-shoves while AK/AQ/air/combo draws aren't always shoved by villains here. I honestly cannot see how mathwise this is a call looking at those numbers.

So far I think the best advice is tskillz' checking the flop. That makes a lot of sense to me and will be my default play from now on. Why is the PF 3bet small though? $50 after $15 open is pretty standard I thought. Anything from $45-60 is typical, no?

3xing OOP is not standard, it's too small. Especially online where people are actually aware of stack sizes, I'd make it like $55-60 there. Basically the deeper you are OOP the bigger your raise needs to be because you're at such a disadvantage OOP. In position and deep you can make your raise sizes smaller because you can just soul crush. The difference between $50 and $60 live isn't much obviously, but all the more reason to do it because he's going to call $60 with whatever he raised with prob.

And yes with KK we'll c/c, just like we would do with AK/JJ/AA, whatever, the point is to give the villain rope in the 3bet pot because it'll prob only take two bets to get it in. So if he does check back turn you can bet river yourself, or villain dependent go for the third check. Checking a third time isn't always bad because a lot of villain have complete air here and are never calling. A lot of other villains have Ax and are pot controlling so you should shove into them, it's up to you to figure out what kind of villain you're up against.

Honestly, I think you are giving a random 1-3 donk waaaaay too much credit here. From my experiences at 1-2, 1-3 live, people don't fold to 3-bets preflop very often, they'll incorrectly call with suited connectors and small pps. If we had a legitimate read on this guy, we might be able to narrow his range a little more, but as we stand, I'd put the following combo draws into his range: 8h9h 8hTh ThQh KhQh KhTh, 7h5h (and better 7hxh hands) You say AQ makes no sense, perhaps not to you, but it might make perfect sense in the villains eyes. Only a small percentage of 1-3 live players are folding AQ preflop to a 3-bet, and only a very small percentage of people who DO call, get away from it on this flop. Same goes for AT, heck, I'd even throw Ax suited into his range. I don't know, maybe we are playing drastically different games, but I don't give much credit to a random 1-3 player for logical thought processes unless I've played a lot of hands with him and he's given me reason to believe otherwise.

We might be playing drastically different live games. In the ones Ive played in, players are very loose passive PF to the first raise, but 3bets are very uncommon and when they happen, people don't usually look them up light with like 87s. I didn't say that AQ makes no sense to call pre, I do think most villains would call a 3bet with AQ. I just don't think they'd shove the flop with it. Every time I've played live, I don't recall seeing any player make a 3bet pre and showdown anything besides AK/KK/AA - so in general I feel 1/3 live players give a 3bettor credit for that range. I would expect AQ to call down, not shove.

Flip the underlined statements around because of the italicized statement.
You get more value and force the villain to play worse.
This is a worse ace about 70% of the time.

Checking flop is good against a thinking player. Otherwise, just bet for value.

There's no reason to bet for value, it a way ahead/way behind situation (and we're almost always way ahead here). You don't bet in those spots.

By checking we give him the opportunity to bluff, if hes not a thinking player he will bet all his As anyways every time and he may bluff. By checking we make our range as weak as possible. Even non-thinking players can see check is weaker than bet.

If instead of just looking at those numbers, you added them up and stuff, you would see that your assumptions above give us a profit of $68 for calling.

I really recommend pokerstove to you. You're on the right track with your combos and equity, but I understand how it's tempting to get half way done and say, "**** it, I think I should probably do X." Less so when the calculations are done for you.

Base, what are you thoughts on the range I gave? Would you adjust the % at all? I commented in that last post that perhaps the % for AJ/JJ should be higher given that villains will always shove those but might play other hands in the range slower.

I think its a good fold, for some reason it just reaks of JJ to me? i dont know where you play your 1-2, 1-3 but $50 seems like the perfect raise in this spot if you say its standard, OOP yes, but you in a way dont wanna scare the villain away if he was just stabbing into a pot. I strongly agree with Tskills on his point of checking the flop. Jacks will always flat call a raise,(unless short stacked) and ive seen some pretty tight 1-2 games myself, ive seen guys lay down AJ/KQs/Q10s like 72's to a 3bet, in the long run its the right move, imo anyways

I think it's valid to weight those hands a little higher.

If we say 6% draw, 1% AQ, and 0% bluff; we're still at break-even. I think that's really conservative and we're not going to really see many opponents with this tight a range.

If we are beat, I think it is 77 more than anything else. Otherwise I think we should be ahead.

I think we get a lot of calls from worse aces, straight draws, and flush draws against the average live $1/$3NL player.

Lois, I find this meatloaf rather shallow and pedantic.... Perhaps. Perhaps.

QUOTE (tskillz187 @ Saturday, July 4th, 2009, 1:00 PM)

You're not deep enough to make this fold imo.

Reraise bigger pf. Live players are either calling the reraise or not. Tehy don't care about the sizing, even if this wasn't live though it's kind of a small reraise.

Check flop imo, you should be checking this flop with a lot of your range. QQ, KK, AA, AK, AQ, JJ, basically there's no reason to bet this flop you're polarizing your range so much. What is the purpose of your flop bet? A high flops in 3bet pots are really good flops to be checking, especially with such shallow stacks. It doesn't take 3 streets worht of betting to get another A all in here, so you should have no worries about checking and it's really helpful so you can check your big pairs here and not have someone just blast away at you.

I hate AK, lol but as played I think this is a C/R on the flop as well, looking to get it in. If we got coolered so be it. I think a chop is just as likely as AQ too. The point is I think you're looking at other hands more often than AJ, JJ 77 etc, call.

FWIW Fade, I'm saying check to check/call flop not to check raise. Gotta let villain barrel twice here and if he doesn't then we bet the river.

Tskillz stop giving away the one advantage I have in these games.

Live players are going to put you on AK/AA/KK when you reraise if it is a passive game, by betting you allow them to play perfectly. Better to check and let them make a mistake, because when they make a mistake we profit.

I <3 this thread

But I thought BigDMcGee proclaimed this thread closed after two replies and said there could be no meaningful discussion?

BigD's definition of meaningful discussion is repeatedly berating a fish

tap tap, tap tap tap

Okay, that makes sense. Gotta get the value out of the hand. Ty for the clarification!

Thanks for replies everyone.

For results, I've got a little twist to add. Hero actually held AQs here, not AK, making it a fairly easy fold, although I did hollywood it a little. After I mucked, villain showed AK.

The reason I posted the hand this way is because I wanted to understand villain's play. At the time I thought it was quite a bad shove, seeing as how the value is so thin - basically only AQ might or might not call (depending how bad player is), but you definitely fold out KK/QQ. But then I started to think, what would I have done if I held AK there? Could villain fold out AK often enough to gain equity with this shove? Now that it seems most on the board feel AK should snap the shove, does that confirm my suspicion that villain's shove with AK is fairly awful?

Yeah, but do you really think KK/QQ are going to give you any further action if you're in villains shoes? I think his shove has some protequity

Yea, i make up words.