The bolded is false. The reason idol worship is a "bad" thing, is because worshiping symbols/concepts/ideas instead of that which is actually here leads to a disconnection from that which is actually here, which has a myriad of undesirable consequences. Doing addictive drugs is not bad because god said it was, it's bad because it ruins your life.

Once you put a mental concept on something, a name, you separate yourself from it. That's why when moses asks god what is name is, he responds "I am that I am". Being itself is to be worshipped, not some name or concept or "god".

The Tao Te Ching says it nicely:

The tao that can be told is not the eternal Tao.

The name that can be named is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.

Naming is the origin of all particular things.




Incorrect, my friend. You have to consider the possibility that you are missing something huge by living in a world of fictional ideas rather than having a true relationship with the natural world that you are in and of. There are consequences to not knowing who you really are.

Why does anyone argue with Balloon guy on religion. He has repeatedly proven he is incapable of critical thought on the subject. Let the man live in his God-parasite fantasies, but don't actually try to talk logically to him. There is absolutely no point.

there's a point to this thread, but it has nothing to do with him. he's just a catalyst.

That's because you are not understanding the value of Worshipping God. If He was a big one of us then you might have a point, He's not.
As far as being moral without God, I am contending that the internal standards of morality could only come from an outside source, and not from random changes to DNA strengthened by natural selection.

Buh bye

Once again proving why you are insane.

You would rather berate a small point that you see, then argue the whole point of he thread, because winning is of much greater importance to you than truth.

If my original point had a validity with a small tweak, why wouldn't you want to tweak it and continue on with the discussion, instead of becoming bogged down with your silly little word game arguments? I imagine it is because you are basically a narcissist trying desperately to suppress that voice in your head telling you that you are wrong about most everything with regards to God.

First did you have to go back and add the word addictive? You did didn't you you hippy pot smoking acid head!

Second, exactly why would my life be 'bad' if I choose to become a heroin shooting person who worships EtchaSketch? Will my death be different than your death? Will there be a grade or a report card? Will I answer for 'wasting' my life according to your standards?
If I make the rational decision that humans are overall just bad for this planet and I begin to kill them en mass using biological weapons, am I really wrong? Or am I just not in agreement with what you think is right?



Actually it sounds like Tao is dodging the Ultimate Question? of Who What and Why.





So you think that the world is filled with people going through life connected with their natural surroundings and holding this relationship dear?
I can go to a museum and enjoy the art there, while other can go and think this stuff is boring. What exactly did we do in the grand scheme of things that matters?
Will their inability to see the meaning behind a Matisse change the value of their life by any standards that are outside of their life?
Will my life become more valuable because I like something that other don't?
And if ti does, what exactly does that value get me? Besides a feeling of arrogance I mean?

the fact that the comparison you are trying to make doesn't exist at all in the modern world is not a small point. it's part of the answer. through social evolution human moral consensus - what is most socially beneficial for humans has gradually emerged independent from religious mandates, not because of them. in terms of what is most beneficial there would be nothing "right" about a fundamentalist mandated moral majority dictated by a few authors even if were possible for one to exist, which it isn't. true morality exists independant of religion.

I think we can objectively show that life is better as a non-addict compared to as an addict. Almost any measure we choose will show this. It's not just my opinion.



But it's actually getting right to the root of that question and where it comes from. (what a paradox!)




No, I think the world is mostly filled with religious fools who are in love with their ideas. But at various points in history in certain places on the globe people have held this relationship dear (e.g. certain native american tribes did). Europeans certainly tend not to, mostly due to christianity, which is why they tend to treat the natural world as an adversary rather than as an ally.

<cue Koyaaniqatsi chanting in the background>



I'm not referring to aesthetic appreciation, I'm talking about understanding what you are and how you fit into the world. It's the thing religion is supposed to be giving to you but is actually taking away from you.

This understanding in fact gives you the opposite of arrogance: Since names and boundaries are products of the mind, the most convincing and distracting one of these is the one you use to distinguish yourself from everything else. When you understand yourself as a natural phenomenon (you are in fact not distinguishable from anything else at a subatomic level) you have the ultimate humility.

And upon achieving this ultimate humility...you get?

To accept that your existence is nothing, and will not matter at all, ever?

Everything. And nothing.



If you ever decide to let go of your afterlife fantasy, you might recognize how much this single existence does matter. It's the only one you've got. Even sadder is that you chose to believe in a sub-par afterlife. You could have gotten the one with multiple virgins.

I see the beauty of this, but I think the masses would find it slightly troubling.





I've said it before;

For the non-believer, this is as good as it ever gets.
For the believer, this is the worst.

BTW, while putting up Christmas lights at a country club today and listening to Dennis Miller on the radio, he had a guy who just wrote a book about life after death and it sounded pretty good. I will research this more after I get through the holidays.

so maybe you should go by a reverse pascal's wager - live this life like there is
no afterlife, since if there isn't you're wasting the only life you have.

So, humans can only be moral as a result of a big guy in the sky telling us to be, otherwise we burn in hell. Gotcha, thanks.



Why have I never commited a crime, then? Why do I give money to charity? Why do I phone/visit my parents whenever I can, to check how they are? Why do I help someone if I see them in trouble? I don't believe in God, and I think religion is a disgustingly backward practice. Shouldn't I be out killing people?



Or maybe I'm just able to abide by an accepted moral code, through common sense, upbringing and education? Crazy idea, huh?

Earlier in this thread while addressing an anarchist I stated that a person can believe in anarchy but still live a life of morality as an individual.

Just because you have a God given understanding of morality, doesn't mean you must believe in it's source in order to apply it.

Your desire to turn the argument into one that if you don't believe in God than you must be a child rapist is a straw man designed to confuse the subject.
Of course you can be a very moral person without believing in God, in fact I know many people who I consider much more moral than many Christians I know. The claim I was making with Vb is that if you want to argue that morality evolved because we saw that certain things were good and we kept them, like empathy, then you must have an outside ruler to measure whether or not some new feeling or emotion is good or bad. In a vacuum of morality, you can't borrow morality in order to judge morality. So I am trying to get to the root of the value system that supposedly gave us this evolved morality that we have today.

And as far as your current moral standards, you are from a Judeo-Christian country who's roots and laws are based on biblical teachings, so in fact you are just borrowing them from Christianity. But it's cool, we like to share.

I guess we could go with that....if we were idiots.

Since the conclusion you reach can also be defined as: because nothing matters so there should be no guilt.

See if where I will be going with that direction next.

I thought you did. Isn't one of the Ten Commandments, 'Thou shalt believe in no other God but me' (or words to that effect)? If I don't believe in God, I'm breaking his own laws. How and why would God give me a sense of morality, but fail to make it clear to me that he exists? That, in itself, would be an immoral act from God because he's prepared to punish me when I die for not believing something, even though he himself gave me the brain to work out logically that he does not exist.



As for living in a Judeo-Christian country, founded on those principles etc... fine, I'm happy to live in a culturally Christian society. Nothing to do with the actual religious aspect of it at all though... I cannot think of one moral judgement that would change, if we rid ourselves of the idea of a God. That's a pretty damning verdict upon humanity isn't it? That we're incapable of judging for ourselves what is morally correct unless we have 'an outside ruler' as you say. Why would we need an outside ruler? We've evolved, we have brains, we can work things out for ourselves. Just like we've worked out how to do everything else better than we used to do.


Sometimes, I really think people like you* don't actually believe in God at all, but deep down, you have such a low opinion of humans you're worried that without 'God', everyone would just run amok and they'd be no law and order whatsoever. So, as a result, you keep the religion thing going just to keep order? I hope I'm right.



* by that, I mean you seem like a pretty intelligent, succesful guy. The crazy, brainless religious types I can understand, but it utterly confuses me when a sane person believes in God.

I never said you would live a perfect moral life..just a good life in comparison to many if not most.



Like wars and murder theft and rape...oh wait we still do those things..... a lot



Nope, I'm pretty much a fundamentalist Born again Christian who buys the whole ball of wax.

And I hope this doesn't hurt but I used to be a non-believing get through life as long as you don't hurt anyone else kind of guy but I found it shallow and meaningless.

Maybe I just got to it's logical conclusion faster than most.

Ok, fine. I'm not exactly sure how that leaves me in terms of entering Heaven, but I guess I'll just have to wait to find out. I'd be gutted if I still got in, to be quite honest, that would be a bit weak of him wouldn't it?


Could you also answer this part though (below), please? This is one of the main reasons that I am sure no God could possibly exist, so I'd like to hear a reasonable answer, if you would.

Didn't Bush and Blair go to war, backed by God? I know they both prayed to him a lot, Blair even waffled on about it in his book. I can only assume then, God is pro-war. Or maybe he's not, and those two just got his message horribly wrong, who knows?

most people aren't brainwashed by AA

it's funny only religious people think that. atheists don't.

You know.. hate to burst your balloon, but near death experiences, and out of body experiences are easily linked to scientific data that proves the brain functions and stays alive for several minutes after the heart stops beating.

The white light experience is lack of oxygen, and the visions are dream sequence. as dreams are merely seconds, but can feel like an entire day has passed.

Well, something like this is probably true, but you're overstating the case quite a bit. This is still mostly conjecture.

( aside:

We did some experiments earlier this year trying to create out of body experiences to image the brain while they are happening. Couldn't quite get the setup to work inside the scanner, but the basic idea is you look through stereoscopic glasses (to make it 3d) which connect to video cameras that are pointed at you from above. So the experience is that you are looking down at your body. You then reinforce the illusion with some synchronized touch tricks and the sensation is pretty strong that you are looking down at a body that you are not inside of any more.

)

Well if you are wondering I'll explain.
No works you can do will earn your way into heaven. Not one person will enter heaven because of their works.
However, Christ dying on the cross and paying for all your sins does gain you full access into heaven.
The cost for this is asking for it. That is the entire Gospel message of how to get into heaven.



First we can list a hundred examples of people using their brains to logically say anything they want. Some people actually think Cricket is enjoyable to watch.
Second, there are many explanations of why God doesn't just reveal Himself and say "Believe or Die" The most common is that to do so would in effect remove your free will to decide on your own whether or not you want to believe and worship God. Let's face it, if God appeared to you in a dream, told you you were going to win the lottery, and the next day you won, you wold have a hard time arguing that there is no God. But some people would still argue that it was just random chemical reactions to the food you ate etc.

We have an internal understanding of morality because that's how we were made, and this along with many other things points to a Creator in our lives, leacing us without excuse on the final day to say "We didn't know you were real"

Should have known you were an expert on near death experiences also.

Glad the whole world is so cut and dried for you.

Must be nice to have all the answers already. Too bad you are stuck in Canada with them

BTW the white light is more often associated with the drugs common in attempts to revive people who's hearts have stopped.

Ahh.. I guess that's your way of discounting everything I believe, after all, I went to AA.

Good logic there crow, your buddies Harris and Dawkins would be proud.

Glad you once again are here to speak for an entire group of people with complete authority.

Must be hard to know the thoughts and motives of thousands of people.
Of course when it comes to actual atheist, you might actually know them all, there are so few of them.
Imagine me trying to know all the billions of Christians in the world..

How do the doctors in the ER not notice the stereoscopic glasses and you 'touching' the patient during these NDEs?

Looked up the info:
Dinesh D'Souza is the author, the book is Life After Death the Evidence

Here's an interesting quote about this book:

“Never one to be daunted by attempting the impossible, Dinesh D’Souza here shows again the argumentative skills that make him such a formidable opponent."

— Christopher Hitchens, author of
God Is Not Great and
The Portable Atheist

are you insane? (rhetorical question). you are the one who just told atheists how they think. duh.
i'm telling you in general you are dead wrong. atheists do not eschew moral behavior or lack
values just because there is no afterlife.

no it's my psycholanalytical theory of why your brain is broke.

yes it's interesting that hitchens just called d'souza a fromidable BS artist. note the word impossible.

i lawl'ed

That's because shallow people think alike

Sam Harris's TED talk from this year, entitled "Science can answer moral questions."

http://www.ted.com/talks/sam_harris_scienc...at_s_right.html

Wait, really? I was under the impression that it specifically does condone slavery. Can anyone back me up here or was I mistaken?

(I didn't do a full catchup, sorry if someone already covered this.)

Absolutely. It even gives specific rules for how long they are to be kept, etc.

For instance

Leviticus 25:44-46: "Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. You can will them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly."

This is just one example but there are many many passages dealing with rules relating to slavery, and none of them says that people should not be kept as slaves.

During the time that the books of the OT were written, slavery was a reality. the Bible as such addressed it.

The reason it doesn't demand all people stop owning slaves is for the same reasons that everyone here completely ignores the fact that more people are living in slavery today than in any times in history and yet not one thing is being done by 99.99% of the population that is real quick to get down on the Bible for telling slave owners to treat slaves as brothers, remembering that they also serve the same God.

Or you can just look at half the facts and come to the conclusion that the Bible condones slavery. ( also do not look up the definition of slavery during these times, since often it did not mean what we think of as slavery thanks to watching Roots and Amistad. )

If Leviticus were written today, do you think it would condemn slavery?

This is an amazingly low standard to hold for the word of God. All the other kids are doing it? Really?

Really? Really? Your position is that slavery in the days of the Old Testament isn't so bad. Really?

The bible did not condemn slavery because... there was slavery?

Why would Leviticus be written today? None of the rules apply to anyone but the Jews who still reject Christ. And I'm not even sure it would apply to them. That's like asking what would the authors of Windows 3.1 for beginners say if they wrote the instructional book today.




The Bible is a collection of books. Some poetry, some history, some instructional for a wandering tribe, and some just wise sayings written down by the wisest man who ever lived. I can see why the rules about eating pork would be much more relevant to a society without refrigeration than one with, does that mean that the rules regarding pork should apply the same for all cultures for ever?

The thing to understand about this subject is that slaves are just people who will stand before the Judgment Seat of God. How they conducted themselves as slaves or as free is what matters, not whether they were slaves or free. The tiny amount of time spent on this planet in these mortal bodies isn't to be compared to eternity, which is why the Bible is not trying to make the earth into heaven, it is trying to save us from a sinking ship. Living right while we do this is just a natural reaction to the Grace shown to us.

It is really quite beautiful to see that our lives here are not that big of a deal, but our relationship with God is of major importance.



The 27 million people living in slavery today are not relevant because you don't have to think about them? Really?

And I think what I said was: "The poor ain't so bad"

there are more slaves now because there are exponentially more people alive. most people are not aware of modern black market slavery or are not in a position to do anything about it. that doesn't mean they condone it.

slavery was not considered immoral by god's people in biblical times. now it is. morality is subjective.

It's hypothetical. If you're saying that Leviticus deals with slavery in the way that it does because there was slavery at the time, and there is slavery today, would God tell us today how to treat our slaves or would he tells us not to take slaves?

What the **** are you talking about? Relevant to what?

Or, they were just wrong.

Please watch the video I bumped this thread with about this very issue (Sam Harris's TED talk), curious to hear your response.

this has got to be a joke.

i meant there is no list of god-given moral laws objectively floating around in the air independent of context. will watch when i have time.

It's all about the heart, SuitedAces21.

I don't think you explain this very well so I'll help out.

You guys seem to think that life as we know it has some importance and that's where you are wrong. It misleads you into all sorts of faulty assumptions like human life having value. It doesn't. You think you make conscience decisions, you don't. God implanted a soul in a us and that is what he uses as a guiding force t control us. The decisions you make are predetermined by him. You think that you are making a choice between books, women, what to eat and a myraid of options but the soul knows in advance what decision is going to be made. His willl, through the soul is always guiding your decision. He has predetermined the force that compels life to act and thus predetermined the expected outcome. You might comprehend it better as a grand experiment by our creator.

So what does slavery matter to God? He's seen billions of beings perish. He created the ant farm to watch it happen. All lives are meaningless and only here to serve him and his game anyway. He knew there were going to be slaves and he knew there were going to be masters. So what? He designed it that way. He knew there would be.

So see, you need to realize that this life is beautiful because that is what he wills through your soul and demands of you because in that way, you will go along with the plan, (as if you had a choice) and continue on with his grand experiment in the hope that the next ant farm will be a better one.

But they can get upset about slavery that happened 1600 years ago because the Bible didn't do anything about it?
I guess when your world view is hypocritical, you can get away with this kind of thing more easily.




Nope, it is cultural. The Bible clearly gives direction for slavery, and doesn't demand that the practice end, so the issue of slavery becomes one of culture. If you are in a culture that find it wrong, you follow that culture, and if you are in a culture that finds it acceptable, you treat your slaves as you treat any other person.

That's why in Galatians 3:28 the Bible clearly tells us that:

There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.


And luckily for many, it was Christians who brought up the objections to most of the major countries resulting in the banning of slavery through out the world.

And they are active in the world today to end it in the places it still exist.

All while you go about your lives and ignore it's reality because you have enough to do to stop the spread of religion.

Then you can pretend you'll get around to the slavery thing, once you stop religion.