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Diboss
Let's say you're in an unraised pot on the button wit 9s 7s and the flop has two spades, nothing paired. So you have a solid flush draw. What do you do if a player bets the pot? Does it make a difference in a tourney/cash game? I can make this more specific if necessary. The point is, how many are willing to call a flush draw getting bad odds to hit the flush on the next card?
Nutcracker
QUOTE
The point is, how many are willing to call a flush draw getting bad odds to hit the flush on the next card?


Most fish are more than willing to call with bad odds, especially on 9 high flush draws.

It really depends on the board though. If my draw is to the nuts (A high flush or nut straight), I might make a slighty incorrect call and assume some implied odds. To a 9 high flush though, what is the point. You might hit and pay off a higher flush, bigtime. So let's see, you are getting 2:1 to call for a 9 high flush. I'd fold that every single time.
Devilkin
QUOTE (Diboss)
Let's say you're in an unraised pot on the button wit 9s 7s and the flop has two spades, nothing paired. So you have a solid flush draw. What do you do if a player bets the pot? Does it make a difference in a tourney/cash game? I can make this more specific if necessary. The point is, how many are willing to call a flush draw getting bad odds to hit the flush on the next card?


Tourney or cash game?
Position?
Chipstack size of me and my opponent?
If in tourney, what stage?
How many in the hand?

Too many variables here to make a solid judgement play. Generally I don't chase flush-only hands heads up. If I had a flush draw, along with a pair, or an outside straight draw, then I'm interested.

Example:
On the button, mid tourney stage. Average sized chipstack compared to the table.

I have K icon_suit_spade.gif 9 icon_suit_spade.gif - limped in with four limpers before me.

Flop comes 9 icon_suit_diamond.gif 2 icon_suit_spade.gif 10 icon_suit_spade.gif , so I have second pair and a flush draw. My outs are:
Three Kings (to make two pair)
Two Nines (trips)
Nine spades (flush)

First person bets pot, folded around to me. Do I stay or do I go?

(9+3+2)/47 = 30% chance on the turn that Ill significantly improve my hand. Add in slightly lower numbers for the river card, and Im almost 60% that Ill improve my hand to something that has a good chance winning.

If Im flush alone, the odds are 9/47 or 19%. See how huge of a difference having a second type of 'out' makes in a hand? THAT kind of thing makes a very large difference whether you should play the pot or not.

Dev
dms26
QUOTE (Devilkin)
QUOTE (Diboss)
Let's say you're in an unraised pot on the button wit 9s 7s and the flop has two spades, nothing paired. So you have a solid flush draw. What do you do if a player bets the pot? Does it make a difference in a tourney/cash game? I can make this more specific if necessary. The point is, how many are willing to call a flush draw getting bad odds to hit the flush on the next card?


Tourney or cash game?
Position?
Chipstack size of me and my opponent?
If in tourney, what stage?
How many in the hand?

Too many variables here to make a solid judgement play. Generally I don't chase flush-only hands heads up. If I had a flush draw, along with a pair, or an outside straight draw, then I'm interested.

Example:
On the button, mid tourney stage. Average sized chipstack compared to the table.

I have K icon_suit_spade.gif 9 icon_suit_spade.gif - limped in with four limpers before me.

Flop comes 9 icon_suit_diamond.gif 2 icon_suit_spade.gif 10 icon_suit_spade.gif , so I have second pair and a flush draw. My outs are:
Three Kings (to make two pair)
Two Nines (trips)
Nine spades (flush)

First person bets pot, folded around to me. Do I stay or do I go?

(9+3+2)/47 = 30% chance on the turn that Ill significantly improve my hand. Add in slightly lower numbers for the river card, and Im almost 60% that Ill improve my hand to something that has a good chance winning.

If Im flush alone, the odds are 9/47 or 19%. See how huge of a difference having a second type of 'out' makes in a hand? THAT kind of thing makes a very large difference whether you should play the pot or not.

Dev


Good answer
Diboss
I completely understand the math of draws and such, like the example just given, that's not even a debate, I'd bet that hand, even raise with that hand. But the case I guess is more about when you play suited connectors, even assuming the opp shows you his AA but his raise was to only 4% of your chipstack (you both have the same size stack) and you call with 87s. He bets the pot in the dark, is the only flop we're looking for here two pair,trips,OESD and flush draw or better? if that's all we'll play postflop then how can we mathematically justify calling a raise with suited connectors and position? In the example the best implied odds you can shoot at is 24-1 (based on the 4% in preflop).

Flopping a flush = 0.8%
Flopping a 4 flush = 11%
Flopping 2 pair = 2%
Trips = 1.35%
Full house = 0.09%
Quads = 0.01%

so then ignoring hitting a 4 flush, we are only going to be happy with 4.25% of the flops? and seeing that we may hit those, and still get burned by the AA on the turn or river, that 4.25% probably drops to less than 4%.
So what then is the justification for calling a big hand with suited connectors in NL?
dms26
QUOTE (Diboss)
I completely understand the math of draws and such, like the example just given, that's not even a debate, I'd bet that hand, even raise with that hand. But the case I guess is more about when you play suited connectors, even assuming the opp shows you his AA but his raise was to only 4% of your chipstack (you both have the same size stack) and you call with 87s.  He bets the pot in the dark, is the only flop we're looking for here two pair,trips,OESD and flush draw or better? if that's all we'll play postflop then how can we mathematically justify calling a raise with suited connectors and position? In the example the best implied odds you can shoot at is 24-1 (based on the 4% in preflop).

Flopping a flush = 0.8%
Flopping a 4 flush = 11%
Flopping 2 pair = 2%
Trips = 1.35%
Full house = 0.09%
Quads = 0.01%

so then ignoring hitting a 4 flush, we are only going to be happy with 4.25% of the flops? and seeing that we may hit those, and still get burned by the AA on the turn or river, that 4.25% probably drops to less than 4%.
So what then is the justification for calling a big hand with suited connectors in NL?


There really isn't one, suited connectors like 78s do well in unraised pots with multiple callers. Calling a raise with 8 high is generally a bad idea, I will fold suited connectors in early position and limp with them if 2 or more poeple limp in before me. Otherwise they just don't play that well.
JT, QJ and KQ is a different story though.
Diboss
what's the difference with JTs and 87s as far as ideal flops go, since we know our pair of Jacks will still be useless? As a matter of fact, in that example 87s performs better against AA than JTs due to the fact that the jacks straight possibility are reduced. People have attemped to make the argument here and elsewhere that you should be able to call a raise suited connectors because his entire stack is what provides your odds. But the math and opinions just shown would suggest that no one would (should) play these. Also let's be honest, the more people that limp in, the more a player with a big hand will raise, so there is no 'cheap' flop against someone with a real hand. I've been searching on the internet to see how some pros handle their suited connectors, didn't find anything yet, so I keep searching.
dms26
QUOTE (Diboss)
what's the difference with JTs and 87s as far as ideal flops go, since we know our pair of Jacks will still be useless? As a matter of fact, in that example 87s performs better against AA than JTs due to the fact that the jacks straight possibility are reduced.  People have attemped to make the argument here and elsewhere that you should be able to call a raise suited connectors because his entire stack is what provides your odds. But the math and opinions just shown would suggest that no one would (should) play these. Also let's be honest, the more people that limp in, the more a player with a big hand will raise, so there is no 'cheap' flop against someone with a real hand. I've been searching on the internet to see how some pros handle their suited connectors, didn't find anything yet, so I keep searching.


I missed the part about you saying you know he has AA. Yeah 87s is one of the best hands against Aces, but still its only 22% or so.

My point is that I would be more willing to call a raise with KQs than 76s against a random hand.

If they raise big it's time to get out, you will flop a flush draw only 10% of the time.
Diboss
In the earlier post I said compared to our stack size, it's not a lot, he raised to 4% of our stack. But the debate is whether we're happy with a 4 flush flop, or are we only hoping to hit two pair or better, which isn't likely to happen, but let's say we're assuming we'll get all his chips if we do. Is 24-1 implied odds worth a call of his preflop raise?
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