I've been doing terribly at Razz recently... I'm playing very tight... playing only 3 to a 6-low or better on 3rd, a 7 or 8 if I have a wheel card showing (74 5) (83 A)

So assuming it's either 2 or 3 bets on 3rd, is it ALWAYS correct to call one bet heads-up if you catch terrible on 4th and they catch good?

EXAMPLE- I generaly play .25/.50 Horse on FTP... 5 to 8 handed

Hero: 63 5

Villain: XX 4

So let's say a K brings in... 3 folds and I complete with the 5 and villain raises... often times I call, sometimes I raise, depending on the door cards and villains image.

So if no hitch-hikers come along, there is 4 SBs, the bring-in and the antes... so in the .25/.50 games it's like $1.40 (6-handed)

If I catch terrible, say I King, and villain catches an 8 or better... Bets, and its .25 to call the now $1.65, can we always call? Should we save our "call on any 4th" for super premium hands like (A3 4) and (54 A)??

Also, if villain catches "really good" like another wheel card, I sometimes auto-fold, but I've been thinking that if they put in a raise or 3 bets with 4... they should have started with 3 wheel cards, and there is a chance they paired up...

I dunno, I am lost when it comes to Razz right now...

Any and all advice and suggestions would be wonderful

TY and GL

As soon as you are down a card it is very bad to chase, this is a fold the vast majority of the time. It sucks to do it, but you need to. I probably would never three bet in that situation, but I play pretty conservatively on 3rd

"razz is a card catching game for idiots" - Mike Matasow

On the reals though I couldn't even begin to talk to you about strategy on razz. Half the time I feel like a genius playing it and the other half of the time I feel like a moron.

I almost never 3 bet on 3rd. In this situation I def call the raise and reevaluate on the turn. If the guy gets a non-pairing 6 or less, it's almost auto fold, anything else I'd ride along as long as you didn't brick.
I'll actually float 3rd often with any 8 or less card to fire on a brick 4th for opponent. I'm just starting to get a feel for this game beyond the "setting parameters of playing x type hands and folding all others." There's a fine line between all the pots you can take when your opponent hits a brick early and you hit a low (even if it pairs you underneath), and getting too nitty with opponents that will call up and down with a 10-8 low (gawd, I shudder thinking about a trny i played a week or so ago that I got taken on a huge pot early ITM with A26T showing on board, when i got called down by a 8-7 low that was made on 7th....had A3 down low and bricked a Q on 7th). The way I play, I'll apply more pressure earlier, but will also fold quicker to villian strength on 4th/5th. The other thing is slowing down on 6th/7th if villian just keeps hanging around. There's no need to keep jamming the pot if you are down or don't know where you stand. Then you can reevaluate and see if there's any value to a call on the end depending on nittiness of your villian.

i dunno, I'm no expert, but that's how i play, and horse has been my best game lately and razz is usually my best or always top 2 session in any trny.

Truth!!
Max also, good points!

3bet on 3rd more so that you win more pots uncontested and you can draw if you brick on 4th and have a smooth draw. playing more pots is fun.

in your example, insta3b unless like all the deuces and 4s are dead on 3rd.

Checky's right, of course... i'll pm you a couple of other thoughts:

You 3 bet that 100% of the time, against 95% of opponents.
You call 4th.
5th; if you catch and he bricks, you're peeling a free 6th with a controllable pot and likely, a free river. If you catch and he catches marginal, you have the odds to call any bet (or even bet out if he's shown weakness in the past) without developing a monster pot. If you brick, you can fold while having taken proper pot odds going into it.

If your opponent catches a wheel card on 5th and you catch "OK" (say an 8), you have some decisions to make. A decent player will bet that 100% of the time even if it paired him. In higher level games, often times players raise here and force villain to define. He will reraise almost always if he's clean, but will often times just call if the small card paired him up, having the pot odds to take off another street but obviously, not enough to value in his hand to develop the pot any more. This often times leads to a free showdown, or , a very easy decision to make on 6th.

My last round of Razz...

1st : 39 9 Fold

2nd: QK 2 (no steal potential as a 3 completed a 4 was still behind me)



3rd:
Razz ($0.25/$0.5), Ante $0.05, Bring-In $0.10 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.2 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx A ___folds
Hero: 6 2 3 ___completes
Seat 4: xx xx T ___folds
Seat 6: xx xx J ___brings-in ___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 3 ___calls ___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 9 ___calls ___calls

4th Street - (4.6 SB)

Hero: 6 2 3 Q ___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 3 6 ___bets
Seat 8: xx xx 9 A ___calls

5th Street - (3.8 BB)

Hero: 6 2 3 Q 4 ___raises
Seat 7: xx xx 3 6 T ___bets ___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 9 A T ___calls ___calls

6th Street - (9.8 BB)

Hero: 6 2 3 Q 4 T ___checks
Seat 7: xx xx 3 6 T 8 ___checks
Seat 8: xx xx 9 A T 3 ___checks

River - (9.8 BB)

Hero: 6 2 3 Q 4 T J ___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 3 6 T 8 xx ___checks ___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 9 A T 3 xx ___bets

Total pot: (11.8 BB - $5.90)

4th:
Razz ($0.25/$0.5), Ante $0.05, Bring-In $0.10 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.4 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 8 ___folds
Seat 2: xx xx A ___folds
Hero: 2 3 5 ___completes
Seat 4: xx xx K ___brings-in ___folds
Seat 6: xx xx Q ___folds
Seat 7: xx xx J ___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 3 ___calls ___calls

4th Street - (3.8 SB)

Hero: 2 3 5 4 ___bets
Seat 8: xx xx 3 6 ___calls

5th Street - (2.9 BB)

Hero: 2 3 5 4 T ___bets
Seat 8: xx xx 3 6 T ___calls

6th Street - (4.9 BB)

Hero: 2 3 5 4 T 5 ___checks
Seat 8: xx xx 3 6 T 7 ___checks

River - (4.9 BB)

Hero: 2 3 5 4 T 5 2 ___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 3 6 T 7 xx ___bets

Total pot: (6.9 BB - $3.45)

5th:
Razz ($0.25/$0.5), Ante $0.05, Bring-In $0.10 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.4 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 7 ___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 6 ___folds
Hero: 3 A 2 ___completes ___raises
Seat 4: xx xx 5 ___raises ___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 9 ___folds
Seat 7: xx xx Q ___brings-in ___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 9 ___calls ___calls ___calls

4th Street - (10.8 SB)

Hero: 3 A 2 5 ___bets
Seat 4: xx xx 5 8 ___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 9 9 ___folds

5th Street - (6.4 BB)

Hero: 3 A 2 5 J ___bets
Seat 4: xx xx 5 8 2 ___checks ___calls

6th Street - (8.4 BB)

Hero: 3 A 2 5 J 6 ___bets
Seat 4: xx xx 5 8 2 2 ___calls

River - (10.4 BB)

Hero: 3 A 2 5 J 6 T ___bets
Seat 4: xx xx 5 8 2 2 xx ___calls

Total pot: (12.4 BB - $6.20)


6th: 2Q 6

7th: 5K Q

8th: A5 8 won on 3rd

9th: Razz ($0.25/$0.5), Ante $0.05, Bring-In $0.10 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.4 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 7 ___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 8 ___completes ___calls
Hero: 2 6 5 ___raises
Seat 5: xx xx 2 ___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 9 ___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 8 ___folds
Seat 8: xx xx J ___brings-in ___folds

4th Street - (5.8 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx 8 5 ___calls
Hero: 2 6 5 2 ___bets

5th Street - (3.9 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx 8 5 3 ___checks
Hero: 2 6 5 2 6 ___checks

6th Street - (3.9 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx 8 5 3 4 ___bets
Hero: 2 6 5 2 6 7 ___checks ___calls

River - (5.9 BB)

Seat 2: xx xx 8 5 3 4 xx ___checks
Hero: 2 6 5 2 6 7 K ___checks

Total pot: (5.9 BB - $2.95)


10th:
Razz ($0.25/$0.5), Ante $0.05, Bring-In $0.10 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.4 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx 8 ___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 5 ___folds
Hero: J 4 K ___brings-in
Seat 5: xx xx 2 ___folds
Seat 6: xx xx 3 ___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 5 ___calls
Seat 8: xx xx 4 ___folds

4th Street - (2.2 SB)

Hero: J 4 K 6 ___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 5 2 ___bets

Total pot: (3.2 SB - $0.80)


I know it's long but any comments would be appreciated.

Thanks and GL on the tables guys.

i didn't see anything above that i would have done much different (and believe me, I scrutinized).

on hand 9, I bet 5th everytime.. But that's probably a leak on my part .

I'd give you an A on the orbit. Sadly, an A =/= profit. which is the b*tch about horse/razz in the first place.

imagine how much you win catching a card or two. In the long run, the guys playing catchup will ship you their money. looks like today wasnt that day.

I've been "down" like 6 of my last 7 sessions. Lately it's like the donkeys aren't reloading and the nitty 20 tablers are breeding behind closed doors. so very frustrating indeed. I don't need a zillion plat/supernova nits when I'm trying to beat rake at $1/2.. bleh.

OMFG THIS IS SO ANNOYING!!! AND I PLAY .5/1 STUD8, WHERE THE RAKE IS WORSE!!!

At these lower limits, villains aren't folding whent hey are showing 853, they're down to "see who makes the best hand"... but maybe I should have... he could have paired or two paired also

I'd slap your hand like Men Nguyen slaps Lance Funston's if I ever saw you do that son.

I agree with all the advice otherwise.

Also, I had been playing lots of pots, my image is prolbably LAG... but maybe firing would be okay