Jada's post got me thinking. Here is a list of the top 15 most likely Hall of Famers (active players only ) from basketball-reference.com.
The question:
If they retired TODAY, who's in, who's out?
If you want to expand by talking about who you think will get in based off of their future performance, that's cool...but I don't see how there's anyway to know right now if Gilbert Arenas will end up being a Hall of Famer.
1. Shaquille O'Neal 1.0000
2. Tim Duncan 1.0000
3. Kobe Bryant 1.0000
4. Kevin Garnett 1.0000
5. Allen Iverson 1.0000
6. LeBron James 0.9993
7. Dirk Nowitzki 0.9984
8. Steve Nash 0.9972
9. Jason Kidd 0.9842
10. Tracy McGrady 0.9782
11. Paul Pierce 0.9386
12. Ray Allen 0.9085
13. Vince Carter 0.8975
14. Grant Hill 0.7951
15. Tony Parker 0.5793
16. Gilbert Arenas 0.5431
I don't have much time so I'll add more thoughts later.
The top 5 are in. Lebron would be close, if you want to give someone the "Jim Brown" effect I think he's in too. Dirk and Nash are probably in though I think they are both overrated. Kidd is in for sure. McGrady...really? I guess he had 4 or 5 dominant scoring years but I didn't expect to see him here. I'm 50/50 on him but the probablity here says he's almost certainly getting in. Pierce is probably in and with another title he's 100% in. Same goes for Allen. Carter...eh. Again, had some huge seasons but I wouldn't vote him in. The last three are certainly not in in my eyes (I guess I could have left the last two off the list)
What do you think?
Full Version: Hall Of Fame - Active Players
QUOTE (chgocubs99 @ Tuesday, April 21st, 2009, 8:36 AM) 
Jada's post got me thinking. Here is a list of the top 15 most likely Hall of Famers (active players only ) from basketball-reference.com.
The question:
If they retired TODAY, who's in, who's out?
If you want to expand by talking about who you think will get in based off of their future performance, that's cool...but I don't see how there's anyway to know right now if Gilbert Arenas will end up being a Hall of Famer.
1. Shaquille O'Neal 1.0000
2. Tim Duncan 1.0000
3. Kobe Bryant 1.0000
4. Kevin Garnett 1.0000
5. Allen Iverson 1.0000
6. LeBron James 0.9993
7. Dirk Nowitzki 0.9984
8. Steve Nash 0.9972
9. Jason Kidd 0.9842
10. Tracy McGrady 0.9782
11. Paul Pierce 0.9386
12. Ray Allen 0.9085
13. Vince Carter 0.8975
14. Grant Hill 0.7951
15. Tony Parker 0.5793
16. Gilbert Arenas 0.5431
I don't have much time so I'll add more thoughts later.
The top 5 are in. Lebron would be close, if you want to give someone the "Jim Brown" effect I think he's in too. Dirk and Nash are probably in though I think they are both overrated. Kidd is in for sure. McGrady...really? I guess he had 4 or 5 dominant scoring years but I didn't expect to see him here. I'm 50/50 on him but the probablity here says he's almost certainly getting in. Pierce is probably in and with another title he's 100% in. Same goes for Allen. Carter...eh. Again, had some huge seasons but I wouldn't vote him in. The last three are certainly not in in my eyes (I guess I could have left the last two off the list)
What do you think?
The question:
If they retired TODAY, who's in, who's out?
If you want to expand by talking about who you think will get in based off of their future performance, that's cool...but I don't see how there's anyway to know right now if Gilbert Arenas will end up being a Hall of Famer.
1. Shaquille O'Neal 1.0000
2. Tim Duncan 1.0000
3. Kobe Bryant 1.0000
4. Kevin Garnett 1.0000
5. Allen Iverson 1.0000
6. LeBron James 0.9993
7. Dirk Nowitzki 0.9984
8. Steve Nash 0.9972
9. Jason Kidd 0.9842
10. Tracy McGrady 0.9782
11. Paul Pierce 0.9386
12. Ray Allen 0.9085
13. Vince Carter 0.8975
14. Grant Hill 0.7951
15. Tony Parker 0.5793
16. Gilbert Arenas 0.5431
I don't have much time so I'll add more thoughts later.
The top 5 are in. Lebron would be close, if you want to give someone the "Jim Brown" effect I think he's in too. Dirk and Nash are probably in though I think they are both overrated. Kidd is in for sure. McGrady...really? I guess he had 4 or 5 dominant scoring years but I didn't expect to see him here. I'm 50/50 on him but the probablity here says he's almost certainly getting in. Pierce is probably in and with another title he's 100% in. Same goes for Allen. Carter...eh. Again, had some huge seasons but I wouldn't vote him in. The last three are certainly not in in my eyes (I guess I could have left the last two off the list)
What do you think?
I dont understand why Lebron is so high on this list (if he retired tomorrow he is NOT a hall of famer......its not a debate) and Wade is not there.
I agree completely that Lebron has a higher ceiling and will be a better player eventually than Wade. But, to this point, hasnt Wade had the better career? He has the title and the Finals MVP at least.
QUOTE (CaneBrain @ Tuesday, April 21st, 2009, 12:41 PM)
I dont understand why Lebron is so high on this list (if he retired tomorrow he is NOT a hall of famer......its not a debate) and Wade is not there.
I agree completely that Lebron has a higher ceiling and will be a better player eventually than Wade. But, to this point, hasnt Wade had the better career? He has the title and the Finals MVP at least.
I agree completely that Lebron has a higher ceiling and will be a better player eventually than Wade. But, to this point, hasnt Wade had the better career? He has the title and the Finals MVP at least.
No, Wade hasn't had a better career.
He was injured for most one of season.
His team when he was paired with the greatest center of this generation won a championship but being on a Championship Team even if you're the best player on that team doesn't mean you've had a better career than somebody who has had the best start to a career in the history of basketball.
And I would say that LeBron would be a Hall of Famer if he somehow was hit by a bus after this season.
QUOTE (chgocubs99 @ Tuesday, April 21st, 2009, 11:36 AM)
What do you think?
I think that there is no way in Hell that Vince Carter or Tracey McGrady should make the Hall of Fame. They have Hall of Fame skills but fail in other areas.
I don't think Ray Allen should be in the Hall. He's been a good player for a long time but at no point has he been close to being considered the best player at his position. No matter how many championships the Celtics win and I think that will be zero in the near future he doesn't cut it for me.
The Basketball Hall of Fame is weird - you can get in just by being a dominant college player
there needs to be separate hall of fame's imo.
who gets in the hall first yao or tmac?
who gets in the hall first yao or tmac?
QUOTE (chgocubs99 @ Tuesday, April 21st, 2009, 8:36 AM)
Jada's post got me thinking. Here is a list of the top 15 most likely Hall of Famers (active players only ) from basketball-reference.com.
The question:
If they retired TODAY, who's in, who's out?
If you want to expand by talking about who you think will get in based off of their future performance, that's cool...but I don't see how there's anyway to know right now if Gilbert Arenas will end up being a Hall of Famer.
1. Shaquille O'Neal 1.0000
2. Tim Duncan 1.0000
3. Kobe Bryant 1.0000
4. Kevin Garnett 1.0000
5. Allen Iverson 1.0000
6. LeBron James 0.9993 Not a HOF today
7. Dirk Nowitzki 0.9984 Not if he retired today, but will be barring injury.
8. Steve Nash 0.9972 Strange case. I think he makes it though.
9. Jason Kidd 0.9842 This should be 100%
10. Tracy McGrady 0.9782 No way.
11. Paul Pierce 0.9386 **** the Celtics.
12. Ray Allen 0.9085 See above.
13. Vince Carter 0.8975 If he gets in, someone should blow up the HOF.
14. Grant Hill 0.7951 Unfortunately no.
15. Tony Parker 0.5793 Oh my god, he might be when it's said and done. Who knew?
16. Gilbert Arenas 0.5431 Pffff
I don't have much time so I'll add more thoughts later.
The top 5 are in. Lebron would be close, if you want to give someone the "Jim Brown" effect I think he's in too. Dirk and Nash are probably in though I think they are both overrated. Kidd is in for sure. McGrady...really? I guess he had 4 or 5 dominant scoring years but I didn't expect to see him here. I'm 50/50 on him but the probablity here says he's almost certainly getting in. Pierce is probably in and with another title he's 100% in. Same goes for Allen. Carter...eh. Again, had some huge seasons but I wouldn't vote him in. The last three are certainly not in in my eyes (I guess I could have left the last two off the list)
What do you think?
The question:
If they retired TODAY, who's in, who's out?
If you want to expand by talking about who you think will get in based off of their future performance, that's cool...but I don't see how there's anyway to know right now if Gilbert Arenas will end up being a Hall of Famer.
1. Shaquille O'Neal 1.0000
2. Tim Duncan 1.0000
3. Kobe Bryant 1.0000
4. Kevin Garnett 1.0000
5. Allen Iverson 1.0000
6. LeBron James 0.9993 Not a HOF today
7. Dirk Nowitzki 0.9984 Not if he retired today, but will be barring injury.
8. Steve Nash 0.9972 Strange case. I think he makes it though.
9. Jason Kidd 0.9842 This should be 100%
10. Tracy McGrady 0.9782 No way.
11. Paul Pierce 0.9386 **** the Celtics.
12. Ray Allen 0.9085 See above.
13. Vince Carter 0.8975 If he gets in, someone should blow up the HOF.
14. Grant Hill 0.7951 Unfortunately no.
15. Tony Parker 0.5793 Oh my god, he might be when it's said and done. Who knew?
16. Gilbert Arenas 0.5431 Pffff
I don't have much time so I'll add more thoughts later.
The top 5 are in. Lebron would be close, if you want to give someone the "Jim Brown" effect I think he's in too. Dirk and Nash are probably in though I think they are both overrated. Kidd is in for sure. McGrady...really? I guess he had 4 or 5 dominant scoring years but I didn't expect to see him here. I'm 50/50 on him but the probablity here says he's almost certainly getting in. Pierce is probably in and with another title he's 100% in. Same goes for Allen. Carter...eh. Again, had some huge seasons but I wouldn't vote him in. The last three are certainly not in in my eyes (I guess I could have left the last two off the list)
What do you think?
QUOTE (FCP Bob @ Tuesday, April 21st, 2009, 10:09 AM)
No, Wade hasn't had a better career.
He was injured for most one of season.
His team when he was paired with the greatest center of this generation won a championship but being on a Championship Team even if you're the best player on that team doesn't mean you've had a better career than somebody who has had the best start to a career in the history of basketball.
And I would say that LeBron would be a Hall of Famer if he somehow was hit by a bus after this season.
He was injured for most one of season.
His team when he was paired with the greatest center of this generation won a championship but being on a Championship Team even if you're the best player on that team doesn't mean you've had a better career than somebody who has had the best start to a career in the history of basketball.
And I would say that LeBron would be a Hall of Famer if he somehow was hit by a bus after this season.
None of that explains how Lebron is 6 and Wade is N/A.
Yes, he missed 30+ games last year. Otherwise, their numbers are pretty similar and Wade has had more team success (Shaq had slowed down noticeably by 2006 anyways). I can understand Lebron being above Wade but not by so much.
QUOTE (chgocubs99 @ Tuesday, April 21st, 2009, 10:36 AM)
1. Shaquille O'Neal 1.0000
2. Tim Duncan 1.0000
3. Kobe Bryant 1.0000
4. Kevin Garnett 1.0000
5. Allen Iverson 1.0000
6. LeBron James 0.9993
7. Dirk Nowitzki 0.9984
8. Steve Nash 0.9972
9. Jason Kidd 0.9842
10. Tracy McGrady 0.9782
11. Paul Pierce 0.9386
12. Ray Allen 0.9085
13. Vince Carter 0.8975
14. Grant Hill 0.7951
15. Tony Parker 0.5793
16. Gilbert Arenas 0.5431
2. Tim Duncan 1.0000
3. Kobe Bryant 1.0000
4. Kevin Garnett 1.0000
5. Allen Iverson 1.0000
6. LeBron James 0.9993
7. Dirk Nowitzki 0.9984
8. Steve Nash 0.9972
9. Jason Kidd 0.9842
10. Tracy McGrady 0.9782
11. Paul Pierce 0.9386
12. Ray Allen 0.9085
13. Vince Carter 0.8975
14. Grant Hill 0.7951
15. Tony Parker 0.5793
16. Gilbert Arenas 0.5431
Top 5 are in.
Lebron isn't even close, everyone in the top 15 are more accomplished on the professional level than Lebron is today, not to mention some of them had phenominal college careers. No one with a 5 year pro career gets in. And lol at him having the best first 5 years of a pro career.
Dirk is probably close. Losing the title in 06 would hurt his chances if he retired today.
Steve Nash is probably in. He is a two time MVP afterall.
Jason Kidd, probably in. Good career, no title... not 100% sold on it. The impressive amount of triple doubles probably gets him in.
T-mac, not in, never been out of the first round really hurts his resume.
Pierce is in, impressive college and pro careers, with a title.
Ray Allen, easy in. May go down as the greatest shooter the game has ever seen.
Vince, not in, needs to find a way to get on a title contender.
Grant Hill, not in based on his pro career. Hurt way to often, might get in with help of his college resume.
Tony Parker, 3rd wheel on a couple title teams, not in just yet. Needs 4-5 more good individual years.
Why is Arenas on this list? In for best blog?
McGrady and Carter are the most interesting cases.
I Think Ray Allen is a shoo in, even Before Pierce.
Grant Hill.. sigh.. what could have been.
Don't hang up the phone on Arenas, he's still pretty damn young. He sure as hell ain't in today, but time is on his side.
Interesting list. Who would have thought 5 years ago TMac and VC were going to be *anything* other than complete locks for the HOF.
I Think Ray Allen is a shoo in, even Before Pierce.
Grant Hill.. sigh.. what could have been.
Don't hang up the phone on Arenas, he's still pretty damn young. He sure as hell ain't in today, but time is on his side.
Interesting list. Who would have thought 5 years ago TMac and VC were going to be *anything* other than complete locks for the HOF.
LEbron's too young.
Dirk is a top 10 power forward of all time, he should be a lock.
Nash has 2 mvp's, should be a lock.
Kidd was the best point guard of his generation, should be a lock.
Pierce and Ray Ray are in for sure now.
Vince should not be in. He was a hall of fame talent, that never lived up to it.
T-Mac is another hall of fame talent that should not be in. Both of them would need to back door a NBA title to get there.
Grant hill could definately get in due to college resume, but it would be like a decade or more after he was eligible.
Tony Parker is definatly on his way. If he'd won his titles on like the lakers, he's probably be in.... the jury is still out.
Dirk is a top 10 power forward of all time, he should be a lock.
Nash has 2 mvp's, should be a lock.
Kidd was the best point guard of his generation, should be a lock.
Pierce and Ray Ray are in for sure now.
Vince should not be in. He was a hall of fame talent, that never lived up to it.
T-Mac is another hall of fame talent that should not be in. Both of them would need to back door a NBA title to get there.
Grant hill could definately get in due to college resume, but it would be like a decade or more after he was eligible.
Tony Parker is definatly on his way. If he'd won his titles on like the lakers, he's probably be in.... the jury is still out.
QUOTE (BigDMcGee @ Tuesday, April 21st, 2009, 6:47 PM)
Fleur looks like Pau Gasol to me.
QUOTE (CaneBrain @ Tuesday, April 21st, 2009, 2:40 PM)
None of that explains how Lebron is 6 and Wade is N/A.
Yes, he missed 30+ games last year. Otherwise, their numbers are pretty similar and Wade has had more team success (Shaq had slowed down noticeably by 2006 anyways). I can understand Lebron being above Wade but not by so much.
Yes, he missed 30+ games last year. Otherwise, their numbers are pretty similar and Wade has had more team success (Shaq had slowed down noticeably by 2006 anyways). I can understand Lebron being above Wade but not by so much.
I can ony assume that Wade isn't on the list because of some sort of minimum requirement that hasn't been hit yet. I can't find it on the site so I don't know what it is. They came in the league at the same time so that clearly isn't it, but it excludes a lot of players from that draft class except for James.
Also...
One of the reasons Nash is a shoo in is that he is a 2 time MVP award. However, one could argue that he didn't deserve one or both of those awards. Do you think he would be in otherwise?
I don't know if any of you read the baseball writer Bill James but he ranks players in two different ways - career value and peak value
peak value being how good you were at your absolute best
to me Lebron's peak value is so much higher than someone like Ray Allen it's a joke
has there really ever been a single year where if you chose the 5 best players in the league Ray Allen would be one of them?
peak value being how good you were at your absolute best
to me Lebron's peak value is so much higher than someone like Ray Allen it's a joke
has there really ever been a single year where if you chose the 5 best players in the league Ray Allen would be one of them?
after seeing him get hurt in the game tonight what about Dikembe Mutombo. surely he is in
QUOTE (keith crime @ Tuesday, April 21st, 2009, 10:52 PM)
I don't know if any of you read the baseball writer Bill James but he ranks players in two different ways - career value and peak value
peak value being how good you were at your absolute best
to me Lebron's peak value is so much higher than someone like Ray Allen it's a joke
has there really ever been a single year where if you chose the 5 best players in the league Ray Allen would be one of them?
peak value being how good you were at your absolute best
to me Lebron's peak value is so much higher than someone like Ray Allen it's a joke
has there really ever been a single year where if you chose the 5 best players in the league Ray Allen would be one of them?
Please let's not get started with the Lebron fanboy stuff in this thread too. The third sentence in your paragraph is totally unrelated to any Hall of Fame discussion.
I mean, I get your point...would you rather a career made up of a 6 time MVP who is an average NBA player his other 10 seasons, or a 14 time All Star who is never in the top 3 of MVP voting?
I think there are room for both types of players though depending on their specific accomplishments.
Also, Ray Allen's best seasons were on terrible bucks and sonics teams. He has been, for years now, the best pure shooter in the game. If Reggie Miller is a hall of famer, Allen surely is ( who's better at penetration and off the dribble than Miller ever was)
QUOTE (BigDMcGee @ Wednesday, April 22nd, 2009, 2:56 AM)
Also, Ray Allen's best seasons were on terrible bucks and sonics teams. He has been, for years now, the best pure shooter in the game. If Reggie Miller is a hall of famer, Allen surely is ( who's better at penetration and off the dribble than Miller ever was)
Well he does got game...
QUOTE (Jadaki @ Wednesday, April 22nd, 2009, 9:07 AM)
Well he does got game...
potd and
reggie miller would smack ray allen not even close
QUOTE (I_fold08 @ Wednesday, April 22nd, 2009, 6:28 AM)
potd and
reggie miller would smack ray allen not even close
reggie miller would smack ray allen not even close
You obviously haven't watched Ray Allen's career. I would take Miller over Allen, if I only needed a pure shooter, but if I needed him to do anything else at all, I'd take allen.
QUOTE (BigDMcGee @ Friday, April 24th, 2009, 4:04 PM)
You obviously haven't watched Ray Allen's career. I would take Miller over Allen, if I only needed a pure shooter, but if I needed him to do anything else at all, I'd take allen.
pressure situations I'd take Miller every time
QUOTE (keith crime @ Friday, April 24th, 2009, 2:08 PM)
pressure situations I'd take Miller every time
yeah, because Allen folds so much under pressure :roll
did you see the last bulls/c's game?
QUOTE (BigDMcGee @ Friday, April 24th, 2009, 5:04 PM)
You obviously haven't watched Ray Allen's career. I would take Miller over Allen, if I only needed a pure shooter, but if I needed him to do anything else at all, I'd take allen.
so can i say you obviously havent watched reggie millers career? reggie trumps ray allen everytime ainec
Can we just agree that both players are clutch?
I Fold, you're tilting me with this Reggie > Ray ainec crap. Why is he? What does he have? I guess he's better at kicking his legs out on shots to draw the foul.
Ray Allen may be the only player where his shot gets more accurate the longer he hangs in the air.
I agree with the LeBron shouldn't be in the HOF camp. Right now he's has a good scoring average and he's definately looking good right now. But he's yet to win any awards (not saying he won't this year, but if it was today, he hasn't) to speak of and I think everybody who's saying he should be in is looking at what will likely happen in the future.
I'm really surprised that Vince and TMac are there at all. Vince is an amazing talent, pity he didn't use it. TMac was a great scorer but as stated, his playoffs woes and injuries have broken him.
Dirk and Nash tilt me because I don't think either really deserve to be in the HOF. They're both good players, but each with their own weaknesses, but I forget how big the HOF is really. I guess I don't really care in the end. But I'd like to say that Nash's two MVP's were ridiculous.
Grant Hill, sigh, oh how I wish you didn't get injured.
I Fold, you're tilting me with this Reggie > Ray ainec crap. Why is he? What does he have? I guess he's better at kicking his legs out on shots to draw the foul.
Ray Allen may be the only player where his shot gets more accurate the longer he hangs in the air.
I agree with the LeBron shouldn't be in the HOF camp. Right now he's has a good scoring average and he's definately looking good right now. But he's yet to win any awards (not saying he won't this year, but if it was today, he hasn't) to speak of and I think everybody who's saying he should be in is looking at what will likely happen in the future.
I'm really surprised that Vince and TMac are there at all. Vince is an amazing talent, pity he didn't use it. TMac was a great scorer but as stated, his playoffs woes and injuries have broken him.
Dirk and Nash tilt me because I don't think either really deserve to be in the HOF. They're both good players, but each with their own weaknesses, but I forget how big the HOF is really. I guess I don't really care in the end. But I'd like to say that Nash's two MVP's were ridiculous.
Grant Hill, sigh, oh how I wish you didn't get injured.
QUOTE (babylondonks @ Friday, April 24th, 2009, 6:05 PM)
Can we just agree that both players are clutch?
I Fold, you're tilting me with this Reggie > Ray ainec crap. Why is he? What does he have? I guess he's better at kicking his legs out on shots to draw the foul.
I Fold, you're tilting me with this Reggie > Ray ainec crap. Why is he? What does he have? I guess he's better at kicking his legs out on shots to draw the foul.
Me too. This guy has to be from indiana.
QUOTE (BigDMcGee @ Saturday, April 25th, 2009, 3:33 AM)
Me too. This guy has to be from indiana.
yea, i guess u could call me biased but i think reggie was the only player to challenge MJ after the detroit years
QUOTE (I_fold08 @ Saturday, April 25th, 2009, 10:04 AM)
yea, i guess u could call me biased but i think reggie was the only player to challenge MJ after the detroit years
LOL
QUOTE (BigDMcGee @ Sunday, April 26th, 2009, 5:22 AM)
LOL
I don't lol even quite reflects the hilarity of this statement. I almost fell off my chair.
QUOTE (babylondonks @ Saturday, April 25th, 2009, 4:27 PM)
I don't lol even quite reflects the hilarity of this statement. I almost fell off my chair.
yeah, I mean I GUESS we could call him biased. LOL
QUOTE (BigDMcGee @ Sunday, April 26th, 2009, 10:42 AM)
yeah, I mean I GUESS we could call him biased. LOL
Oh I dunno. I mean I think the consensus of best players ever is something like this
MJ = Reggie
Bird/Magic/Wilt/Russell/West/Baylor/etc.
The Rest of The League
Ray Allen
QUOTE (babylondonks @ Saturday, April 25th, 2009, 8:05 PM)
Ray Allen
I'm laughing at this a lot harder than I should be, well done.
QUOTE (babylondonks @ Saturday, April 25th, 2009, 9:05 PM)
Oh I dunno. I mean I think the consensus of best players ever is something like this
MJ = Reggie
Bird/Magic/Wilt/Russell/West/Baylor/etc.
The Rest of The League
you are taking what i said out of context. i didnt say reggie was better than those players just that after jordan got passed the pistons, reggie's pacers i feel are the only team that challenged those bulls squads.
Ray Allen
MJ = Reggie
Bird/Magic/Wilt/Russell/West/Baylor/etc.
The Rest of The League
you are taking what i said out of context. i didnt say reggie was better than those players just that after jordan got passed the pistons, reggie's pacers i feel are the only team that challenged those bulls squads.
Ray Allen
QUOTE
Oh I dunno. I mean I think the consensus of best players ever is something like this
MJ = Reggie
Bird/Magic/Wilt/Russell/West/Baylor/etc.
The Rest of The League
you are taking what i said out of context. i didnt say reggie was better than those players just that after jordan got passed the pistons, reggie's pacers i feel are the only team that challenged those bulls squads.
Ray Allen
MJ = Reggie
Bird/Magic/Wilt/Russell/West/Baylor/etc.
The Rest of The League
you are taking what i said out of context. i didnt say reggie was better than those players just that after jordan got passed the pistons, reggie's pacers i feel are the only team that challenged those bulls squads.
Ray Allen
So not only is he a huge homer, and incompetent at quoting a post, but he's also humorless too.
What? The Bulls with Jordan played in the pacers one time in the entire decade of the 1990's.
QUOTE (chgocubs99 @ Monday, April 27th, 2009, 12:35 AM)
What? The Bulls with Jordan played in the pacers one time in the entire decade of the 1990's.
BUT IT WAS AMAZING AND SHOWED THAT REGGIE'S TEAM WAS ON A TRUE LEVEL WITH THE BULLS!!!!!!!!!
QUOTE (babylondonks @ Monday, April 27th, 2009, 3:06 AM)
BUT IT WAS AMAZING AND SHOWED THAT REGGIE'S TEAM WAS ON A TRUE LEVEL WITH THE BULLS!!!!!!!!!
Ya'll are krazy! Reggie "Shaved Head" Miller was and still is the greatest baseball player of all time. Grow up.
From Bill Simmons, making the ray allen vs Reggie miller case way better than I ever could..
QUOTE
A number of readers disagreed, which I expected for the simple reason that Allen is underrated and Miller is overrated. For his nine-season prime (1999-2007), Ray-Ray was remarkably efficient (23-5-4, 45 percent FG, 40 percent 3FG, 90 percent FT) and rarely tried anything he couldn't do. If he were a baseball player, he would have been Wade Boggs -- not a franchise guy, but someone with a few elite skills (milking pitch counts, getting on base, stroking singles and, in Boggs' case, rarely missing a game) that made him a genuine asset as long as you surrounded him with other quality players.
Miller had that luxury; Allen did not. Allen played on two contenders in his prime. His 2000-01 Bucks were so alarmingly screwed by the officiating against Philly -- please, Google "Bucks Sixers 2001 playoffs officials" and you will see what I mean -- that the '01 Eastern Conference Finals became the forgotten older brother to the infamous Kings-Lakers series a year later in the NBA's family of Series We Kinda-Sorta Rigged. In 18 playoff games, Allen averaged a 25-6-4 with blistering 3-point shooting (48 percent). Four years later, he averaged a 27-4-4 in 11 playoff games for an inspiring 2005 Sonics team that severely tested the Spurs (who won the title two rounds later). How would we remember Allen if he thrived on Miller's Indiana teams from 1994-2004? Flipping that around, how would we remember Reggie had he spent his prime relying on low-post scoring, shot-blocking and rebounding from Ervin Johnson, Jerome James, Predrag Drobnak, Armon Gilliam, Tractor Traylor, Scott Williams, Reggie Evans, Jason Caffey, Danny Fortson, Vitaly Potapenko, Nick Collison, Johan Petro, Robert Swift and a washed-up Anthony Mason ... which, by the way, was the entire line of power forwards and centers who played with Ray Allen in his prime?
Allen made nine All-Star games (and counting); Miller made five in a weaker era. Allen made a second-team All-NBA; Miller never did. Statistically, Allen is better in every respect -- slightly better scorer, slightly better shooter, even percentages in every other category -- although Miller was definitely more durable. Miller had more big moments but played in more big games; everyone conveniently forgets about all the crappy ones he had. Like his unequivocal stink bomb in Game 7 of the '94 Eastern Conference Finals. Like his no-show Game 7 of the '95 Eastern Conference Finals (a 32-point blowout). Like how he disappeared in the fourth quarter of Game 7 of the '98 Eastern Conference Finals against an aging Bulls team that was running on fumes. He never had a consistently scorching run like Allen did in the 2001 playoffs or even in the 2008 NBA Finals. His two iconic performances (the 25-point quarter and the eight-point miracle finish) both happened at MSG, pushing it to a different level of significance, and if you think we'd remember him as fondly if those two games happened in Orlando or Detroit, you're crazy.
The point isn't to demean Miller's credentials; I loved watching him and he's the only guard from the '90s who truly relished going against Jordan. His ability to raise his game in big moments remains his defining trait. Allen possesses that same quality but rarely displayed it because he toiled away on so many piddling teams. At his peak, Allen attacked Kobe with the same relish that Miller went at Jordan. He scared the hell out of countless fans in the last minute of big games. He's one of the best coolers (my term for guys who close out wins on the line) that we've ever seen. If he stays healthy for two or three more years and plays at a level comparable to the past two seasons -- and gets those belated playoff reps to boot -- "Ray vs. Reggie" won't even be an argument anymore. Ray Allen will have had a better career, whether you want to admit it or not.
Miller had that luxury; Allen did not. Allen played on two contenders in his prime. His 2000-01 Bucks were so alarmingly screwed by the officiating against Philly -- please, Google "Bucks Sixers 2001 playoffs officials" and you will see what I mean -- that the '01 Eastern Conference Finals became the forgotten older brother to the infamous Kings-Lakers series a year later in the NBA's family of Series We Kinda-Sorta Rigged. In 18 playoff games, Allen averaged a 25-6-4 with blistering 3-point shooting (48 percent). Four years later, he averaged a 27-4-4 in 11 playoff games for an inspiring 2005 Sonics team that severely tested the Spurs (who won the title two rounds later). How would we remember Allen if he thrived on Miller's Indiana teams from 1994-2004? Flipping that around, how would we remember Reggie had he spent his prime relying on low-post scoring, shot-blocking and rebounding from Ervin Johnson, Jerome James, Predrag Drobnak, Armon Gilliam, Tractor Traylor, Scott Williams, Reggie Evans, Jason Caffey, Danny Fortson, Vitaly Potapenko, Nick Collison, Johan Petro, Robert Swift and a washed-up Anthony Mason ... which, by the way, was the entire line of power forwards and centers who played with Ray Allen in his prime?
Allen made nine All-Star games (and counting); Miller made five in a weaker era. Allen made a second-team All-NBA; Miller never did. Statistically, Allen is better in every respect -- slightly better scorer, slightly better shooter, even percentages in every other category -- although Miller was definitely more durable. Miller had more big moments but played in more big games; everyone conveniently forgets about all the crappy ones he had. Like his unequivocal stink bomb in Game 7 of the '94 Eastern Conference Finals. Like his no-show Game 7 of the '95 Eastern Conference Finals (a 32-point blowout). Like how he disappeared in the fourth quarter of Game 7 of the '98 Eastern Conference Finals against an aging Bulls team that was running on fumes. He never had a consistently scorching run like Allen did in the 2001 playoffs or even in the 2008 NBA Finals. His two iconic performances (the 25-point quarter and the eight-point miracle finish) both happened at MSG, pushing it to a different level of significance, and if you think we'd remember him as fondly if those two games happened in Orlando or Detroit, you're crazy.
The point isn't to demean Miller's credentials; I loved watching him and he's the only guard from the '90s who truly relished going against Jordan. His ability to raise his game in big moments remains his defining trait. Allen possesses that same quality but rarely displayed it because he toiled away on so many piddling teams. At his peak, Allen attacked Kobe with the same relish that Miller went at Jordan. He scared the hell out of countless fans in the last minute of big games. He's one of the best coolers (my term for guys who close out wins on the line) that we've ever seen. If he stays healthy for two or three more years and plays at a level comparable to the past two seasons -- and gets those belated playoff reps to boot -- "Ray vs. Reggie" won't even be an argument anymore. Ray Allen will have had a better career, whether you want to admit it or not.
QUOTE (BigDMcGee @ Wednesday, April 29th, 2009, 7:55 AM)
From Bill Simmons, making the ray allen vs Reggie miller case way better than I ever could..
looks like i can argue for 2-3 more years then, hoping Allen starting this year will lose in the first round.
also u notice the MJ point that he made lol
QUOTE (I_fold08 @ Wednesday, April 29th, 2009, 4:55 AM)
looks like i can argue for 2-3 more years then, hoping Allen starting this year will lose in the first round.
also u notice the MJ point that he made lol
also u notice the MJ point that he made lol
again, because he "liked to play " against MJ, doesn't mean he challenged MJ. that's LOL funny to say. Playing one playoff series at the end of the Jordan era in Chicago ( and losing the series) isn't exactly challenging him. Simmons basic point, which was mine, was that Ray Allen toiled on lousy teams for most of his career, while reggie miller was in the spotlight, and a disproportionate amount of Reggie's reputation was built on games and series that occurred in NYC. As simmons points out, allen is better than miller at every single part of the game, including 3 point shooting, which is miller's only great strength. The only thing you can say is that Reggie is more " clutch" than allen, and the clutchness of a player, most of the time, is such an utter fraudulent thing that only exists in fan's mind. It's a product of small samples sizes and selective memory, for the most part. Why is the NYC games considered clutch but he's game seven games not considered chokes? IN every quantifiable sense Allen is better than Miller, and the only way you can continue to argue miller is your a utter homer.
It is pretty much impossible to argue that Reggie Miller is better than Ray Allen. Stats dont lie....and now Allen has a ring and Miller doesnt. Miller never even played in the NBA finals, right?
This is a classic non-debate......Reggie Miller is only the 2nd best basketball player in his OWN FAMILY.
This is a classic non-debate......Reggie Miller is only the 2nd best basketball player in his OWN FAMILY.
QUOTE (CaneBrain @ Wednesday, April 29th, 2009, 2:51 PM)
It is pretty much impossible to argue that Reggie Miller is better than Ray Allen. Stats dont lie....and now Allen has a ring and Miller doesnt. Miller never even played in the NBA finals, right?
This is a classic non-debate......Reggie Miller is only the 2nd best basketball player in his OWN FAMILY.
This is a classic non-debate......Reggie Miller is only the 2nd best basketball player in his OWN FAMILY.
Allen has a ring because of Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce
Miller was in a finals and he was the best player on his team
Allen was terrible for a large part of the playoffs last year
QUOTE (keith crime @ Wednesday, April 29th, 2009, 1:01 PM)
Allen has a ring because of Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce
Miller was in a finals and he was the best player on his team
Allen was terrible for a large part of the playoffs last year
Miller was in a finals and he was the best player on his team
Allen was terrible for a large part of the playoffs last year
Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce have a ring because of Ray Allen. Sure, he had his struggles in last year's playoffs (mostly against Atlanta in the 1st round) but he was an integral piece of that team. They dont win without him.
Thats right I forgot about when Miller and the pacers got trounced by the Lakers. I would say Jermaine O'Neal was the best player on that team (by a lot, tbh).
In short, I disagree.
QUOTE (CaneBrain @ Wednesday, April 29th, 2009, 3:08 PM)
Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce have a ring because of Ray Allen. Sure, he had his struggles in last year's playoffs (mostly against Atlanta in the 1st round) but he was an integral piece of that team. They dont win without him.
Thats right I forgot about when Miller and the pacers got trounced by the Lakers. I would say Jermaine O'Neal was the best player on that team (by a lot, tbh).
In short, I disagree.
Thats right I forgot about when Miller and the pacers got trounced by the Lakers. I would say Jermaine O'Neal was the best player on that team (by a lot, tbh).
In short, I disagree.
when those pacers teams needed someone to take a big shot - they threw the ball to reggie
when the celtics needed a big shot they threw the ball to pierce
QUOTE (keith crime @ Wednesday, April 29th, 2009, 12:14 PM)
when those pacers teams needed someone to take a big shot - they threw the ball to reggie
when the celtics needed a big shot they threw the ball to pierce
when the celtics needed a big shot they threw the ball to pierce
so is pippen out of the hall of fame?
Having someone on your team who is better than you is completely independent of how good you are. Not really something you can control.
When the Lakers were awesome from 2000-2002, Kobe took the late shots even though Shaq was the most important (and best) player on the team. Guards usually get the ball late. It's true, those Pacers teams went to Reggie in the clutch. That was his thing. That doesnt overshadow the fact that for the first 45 minutes of the game, Jermaine O'Neal was THE guy.
Also, Ray Allen has hit a huge # of big-time late threes last year and this year. He gets the ball when they are down 3, Pierce gets it when they are down 2 or less. So, I am not sure your assumptions are even entirely correct.
QUOTE (CaneBrain @ Wednesday, April 29th, 2009, 4:08 PM)
Kevin Garnett and Paul Pierce have a ring because of Ray Allen. Sure, he had his struggles in last year's playoffs (mostly against Atlanta in the 1st round) but he was an integral piece of that team. They dont win without him.
Thats right I forgot about when Miller and the pacers got trounced by the Lakers. I would say Jermaine O'Neal was the best player on that team (by a lot, tbh).
In short, I disagree.
Thats right I forgot about when Miller and the pacers got trounced by the Lakers. I would say Jermaine O'Neal was the best player on that team (by a lot, tbh).
In short, I disagree.
jermaine didnt play for the pacers in that series, and they lost to the most dominant team of the decade. series almost went 7 but kobe bryant is kobe bryant for a reason
QUOTE (CaneBrain @ Wednesday, April 29th, 2009, 2:51 PM)
Miller never even played in the NBA finals, right?
Incorrect, they lost to the Spurs in 99.
Edit: my bad, it was the Lakers. Who did the Spurs beat to win their first title?
QUOTE (keith crime @ Wednesday, April 29th, 2009, 3:14 PM)
when those pacers teams needed someone to take a big shot - they threw the ball to reggie
when the celtics needed a big shot they threw the ball to pierce
when the celtics needed a big shot they threw the ball to pierce
How much have you watched the Celtics the last two years. Allen is the go to guy in clutch situations on that team.
QUOTE (Jadaki @ Wednesday, April 29th, 2009, 4:21 PM)
Incorrect, they lost to the Spurs in 99.
lol and just in case that isnt sarcasm the lakers in 2000
QUOTE (I_fold08 @ Wednesday, April 29th, 2009, 3:23 PM)
lol and just in case that isnt sarcasm the lakers in 2000
Yea I realized that after I posted it, I just cant remember who the Spurs beat in the strike shortened season now.
QUOTE (Jadaki @ Wednesday, April 29th, 2009, 1:21 PM)
Incorrect, they lost to the Spurs in 99.
Edit: my bad, it was the Lakers. Who did the Spurs beat to win their first title?
Edit: my bad, it was the Lakers. Who did the Spurs beat to win their first title?
knicks (who were the 8 seed that year). pretty sure. this was the lockout year.
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